Pairing or marking neutrals

[jmellc]

I like marking my neutrals with ckt # in the panel, or at least pairing/taping each neutral to its respective blk, red or blu wire. I have seen issues before when removing or rearranging ckts in a crowded panel that the wrong neutral gets removed, wreaking havoc on another ckt.

We made a pull recently being careful to pair our neutrals all the way from load, through j boxes and to the panel. Boss came along and said it didn't matter, just cut and stuff them in the panel to connect later. He insisted, each wire has a neutral and it doesn't have to be marked.

I didn't turn this into a war with him but I think he is being very nearsighted, whereas he usually thinks ahead on more issues.

Feedback?

 

[John120/240]

It sounds like he is watching the clock, pinching his pennies. The extra time that it takes to mark your neutrals is not in his budget. "Get in, Get out, Getter done" is his mantra.

 

[iwire]

a neutral and it doesn't have to be marked.

I didn't turn this into a war with him but I think he is being very nearsighted, whereas he usually thinks ahead on more issues.

Feedback?

Waste of time in my opinion. Unless of course it is in the specifications or it is a multiwire branch circuit which the NEC requires to be grouped.


In my opinion it takes far more time to mark once for pulling and mark again at termination all the neutrals in a panel vs the time it would take to find one at some later point if you even needed to.

An amp clamp can make very quick work of finding the neutral of a two wire circuit.

 

[kwired]

You should be only limited to the circuits in same raceway/cable as possible circuits the neutral belongs to. One circuit only- why bother marking it?

JMO

 

[jmellc]

You should be only limited to the circuits in same raceway/cable as possible circuits the neutral belongs to. One circuit only- why bother marking it?

JMO

We had 3 ckts in this conduit. With a single ckt, usually easy enough to follow from the conduit down to neutral bar. Even then, sometimes the panel is very crowded & harder to do this. But with our 3 ckts we may need to know which is which at some point and it only takes a few seconds to pair them or label the neutral. I have seen wrong neutrals disconnected and critical circuits killed or 240 going across loads in cases of a MWBC.

If the process took an hour, I could see not doing it. A few seconds is no big deal, or shouldn't be. I hear a lot of preaching about safety & correct procedures, then hear that a simple thing is not worth doing.

 

[kwired]

We had 3 ckts in this conduit. With a single ckt, usually easy enough to follow from the conduit down to neutral bar. Even then, sometimes the panel is very crowded & harder to do this. But with our 3 ckts we may need to know which is which at some point and it only takes a few seconds to pair them or label the neutral. I have seen wrong neutrals disconnected and critical circuits killed or 240 going across loads in cases of a MWBC.

If the process took an hour, I could see not doing it. A few seconds is no big deal, or shouldn't be. I hear a lot of preaching about safety & correct procedures, then hear that a simple thing is not worth doing.

NEC requires you to somehow ID which ungrounded conductors go with which neutral for MWBC's, a single MWBC in a single raceway or cable is in itself enough to meet those requirements.

If not a MWBC and you disconnect the neutral - you interrupt the circuit, but do not subject it to same imbalanced voltage issues you can have with a MWBC when doing the same thing. The bigger issue IMO is paying close enough attention to what you are doing. Even I have disconnected a neutral - and by not being careful enough opened a circuit I wasn't intending to open. Usually other problems contribute, so a neat and workmanlike install as well as other code compliance does help out here.

 

[texie]

The requirements for grouping of the neutrals has been strengthened in the 2014 NEC. Your installation would be required to be grouped or marked as you describe under the 2014 NEC. See 2014 200.4.

 

[growler]

Waste of time in my opinion. Unless of course it is in the specifications or it is a multiwire branch circuit which the NEC requires to be grouped.

I don't know I guess it's a question of what the building is used for. I did a job once for a defense contrator. Everything thing in the whole facility was marked and ongoing as-built prints were kept.

Only place I have ever been where you could walk up to a receptacle and see the panel number and circuit number were listed on the cover plate. If any device were added or deleted the change was made on the as-built prints at the end of the day. The prints were kept accurate up to within few hours.

Seemed to be a lot of trouble at first but when you got used to doing it that way it didn't take much effort at all.

The hardest thing about marking and keeping correct records is getting a crew trained to do it.

 

[iwire]

We had 3 ckts in this conduit. With a single ckt, usually easy enough to follow from the conduit down to neutral bar. Even then, sometimes the panel is very crowded & harder to do this. But with our 3 ckts we may need to know which is which at some point and it only takes a few seconds to pair them or label the neutral. I have seen wrong neutrals disconnected and critical circuits killed or 240 going across loads in cases of a MWBC.

If the process took an hour, I could see not doing it. A few seconds is no big deal, or shouldn't be. I hear a lot of preaching about safety & correct procedures, then hear that a simple thing is not worth doing.

It does not take just a few seconds and if it was your money I bet you would feel differently.

 

[jmellc]

It does not take just a few seconds and if it was your money I bet you would feel differently.

3 hots, 3 neutrals in a conduit. Taping pairs is not very time consuming. I had a business in the past and the few commercial jobs I had, I considered it worth doing, even when I was paying for it.

 

[kwired]

3 hots, 3 neutrals in a conduit. Taping pairs is not very time consuming. I had a business in the past and the few commercial jobs I had, I considered it worth doing, even when I was paying for it.

Not much time for that one raceway. But how much time does it take on a large build where you have to do this same task possibly hundreds of times? In that case if you do want identification you possibly even consider getting white conductors with colored tracers to match your ungrounded conductors- it will probably be worth it.

 

[jmellc]

Not much time for that one raceway. But how much time does it take on a large build where you have to do this same task possibly hundreds of times? In that case if you do want identification you possibly even consider getting white conductors with colored tracers to match your ungrounded conductors- it will probably be worth it.

You worry about the cost of a few seconds of time but tell me I should special order wire with tracers? That would go over real big. Imagine the extra cost of that wire (we often pay shipping too on special orders) and the extra time to keep up with the spools.

 

[fmtjfw]

Waste of time in my opinion. Unless of course it is in the specifications or it is a multiwire branch circuit which the NEC requires to be grouped.


In my opinion it takes far more time to mark once for pulling and mark again at termination all the neutrals in a panel vs the time it would take to find one at some later point if you even needed to.

An amp clamp can make very quick work of finding the neutral of a two wire circuit.

Ok, I'm in a junction box with 3 white wires and three black wires in conduit 1 (from the panelboard).
2 of the whites and blacks go out conduit 2, and the third white and black go out conduit 3.

My task is to add a conduit 4 and use one of the first two pairs of white and black to feed a new receptacle from a new conduit 4.

I measure the current in both whites and blacks going into conduit 2 and find no measurable current. My non-contact tickie indicates line voltage on both black wires.

Please explain the procedure I use with my Amprobe to associate the right white wire with one of the black wires.

 

[fmtjfw]

NEC requires you to somehow ID which ungrounded conductors go with which neutral for MWBC's, a single MWBC in a single raceway or cable is in itself enough to meet those requirements.

If not a MWBC and you disconnect the neutral - you interrupt the circuit, but do not subject it to same imbalanced voltage issues you can have with a MWBC when doing the same thing. The bigger issue IMO is paying close enough attention to what you are doing. Even I have disconnected a neutral - and by not being careful enough opened a circuit I wasn't intending to open. Usually other problems contribute, so a neat and workmanlike install as well as other code compliance does help out here.

New to 2014:

200.4 Neutral Conductors. Neutral conductors shall be installed in accordance with 200.4(A) and (B).
....
(B) Multiple Circuits. Where more than one neutral conductor associated with different circuits is in an enclosure, grounded circuit conductors of each circuit shall be identified or grouped to correspond with the ungrounded circuit conductor(s) by wire markers, cable ties, or similar means in at least one location within the enclosure.

Exception No. 1: The requirement for grouping or identifying shall not apply if the branch-circuit or feeder conductors enter from a cable or a raceway unique to the circuit that makes the grouping obvious.

Exception No. 2: The requirement for grouping or identifying shall not apply where branch-circuit conductors pass though a box or conduit body without a loop as described in 314.16(B)(1) or without a splice or termination.

 

[GoldDigger]

Ok, I'm in a junction box with 3 white wires and three black wires in conduit 1 (from the panelboard).
2 of the whites and blacks go out conduit 2, and the third white and black go out conduit 3.

My task is to add a conduit 4 and use one of the first two pairs of white and black to feed a new receptacle from a new conduit 4.

I measure the current in both whites and blacks going into conduit 2 and find no measurable current. My non-contact tickie indicates line voltage on both black wires.

Please explain the procedure I use with my Amprobe to associate the right white wire with one of the black wires.

Put a load on one of the two circuits first.
If you do not know where either of them go you should probably not be adding additional load to the circuit.

 

[kwired]

You worry about the cost of a few seconds of time but tell me I should special order wire with tracers? That would go over real big. Imagine the extra cost of that wire (we often pay shipping too on special orders) and the extra time to keep up with the spools.

On a project as large as I was describing - is it necessarily a special order? Certainly the kind of thing you don't try to order at the last minute. You will use enough conductor on said project the whole order for conductors may be "special order" but in large enough quantity you can make such specifications for no major additional cost.

New to 2014:

200.4 Neutral Conductors. Neutral conductors shall be installed in accordance with 200.4(A) and (B).
....
(B) Multiple Circuits. Where more than one neutral conductor associated with different circuits is in an enclosure, grounded circuit conductors of each circuit shall be identified or grouped to correspond with the ungrounded circuit conductor(s) by wire markers, cable ties, or similar means in at least one location within the enclosure.

Exception No. 1: The requirement for grouping or identifying shall not apply if the branch-circuit or feeder conductors enter from a cable or a raceway unique to the circuit that makes the grouping obvious.

Exception No. 2: The requirement for grouping or identifying shall not apply where branch-circuit conductors pass though a box or conduit body without a loop as described in 314.16(B)(1) or without a splice or termination.

I think I have read that before - but have forgotten it. Is reason though to make the effort to identify such conductors. This requirement may just make it more common for supply houses to stock conductors with tracers or other id already as a part of the conductor.

 

[fmtjfw]

If you don't associate the neutral with the hot(s) in an enclosure that contains more than one neutral and the grouping is not evident, then when you need to add a circuit using one of the hots and the associated neutral, then getting the right neutral is a treasure hunt.

I guess one needs to weigh the cost of the treasure hunts against the cost of properly marking the groups (prior to adoption of 2014.)

If the neutral is associated with a single hot you need only to look for distinctive non-zero current in each.
If the neutral is associated with a MWBC in a 120/240V (or equivalent) you need to do simple arithmetic after reading the currents.
If the neutral is associated with a MWBC in a 3-phase wye now you need to do vector arithmetic after reading the currents.

If you connect to a neutral and a hot without getting the right pairing when each neutral is associated with one hot you risk overloading a neutral wire as well as overloading a neutral wire.

In MWBC cases if you do not associate the neutral with the right hots then you risk letting the magic smoke out of equipment connected to neutral.

 

[GoldDigger]

For a wye MWBC with mixed low power factor loads you do the vector arithmetic using the vector angles read out from your vector clamp ammeter. :angel:

 

[jmellc]

On a project as large as I was describing - is it necessarily a special order? Certainly the kind of thing you don't try to order at the last minute. You will use enough conductor on said project the whole order for conductors may be "special order" but in large enough quantity you can make such specifications for no major additional cost.



I think I have read that before - but have forgotten it. Is reason though to make the effort to identify such conductors. This requirement may just make it more common for supply houses to stock conductors with tracers or other id already as a part of the conductor.

You described a large project but our's is much smaller. The entire job is about a dozen ckts. We spent a lot more time running conduit through crowded ceilings than pulling wire. The 3 ckts I mentioned had already been pulled and neutrals taped at each j box. Panel was last loop. I had taped neutrals before feeding & had only to tape them at the panel after pulling.

 

[iwire]

Ok, I'm in a junction box with 3 white wires and three black wires in conduit 1 (from the panelboard).
2 of the whites and blacks go out conduit 2, and the third white and black go out conduit 3.

My task is to add a conduit 4 and use one of the first two pairs of white and black to feed a new receptacle from a new conduit 4.

I measure the current in both whites and blacks going into conduit 2 and find no measurable current. My non-contact tickie indicates line voltage on both black wires.

Please explain the procedure I use with my Amprobe to associate the right white wire with one of the black wires.

You put a current on the circuit you want to add to, often this is complicated. You might have to flip a switch on or even plug something in.

Once you get by that major stumbling block you measure the current on the hot you want, then find it on the neutral you want. To ensure you have the right neutral you turn the circuit off and the current will drop if you have the correct neutral.

Its tough to be superman.