Panel in Big Clothes Closet

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jxofaltrds said:
90.4. That said if this 'closet' is on the approved plans the electrical inspector can NOT allow the room to be renamed. Only the electrical plans examineer can do that. It is not a field call to change anything on an approved set of plans, in Ohio.
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The architect went back to the plan review group and got the room officially changed-- you can do that....
 
jxofaltrds said:
90.4. That said if this 'closet' is on the approved plans the electrical inspector can NOT allow the room to be renamed. Only the electrical plans examineer can do that. It is not a field call to change anything on an approved set of plans, in Ohio.
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Key words in bold. I have never used an "approved set of plans" for a dwelling unit. Most of the plans I use are floor plans only and are drawn by a guy at the local lumber place that is in no way an architect or engineer. Inspectors never see these plans either unless they are laying around on the jobsite.
 
kwired said:
Key words in bold. I have never used an "approved set of plans" for a dwelling unit. Most of the plans I use are floor plans only and are drawn by a guy at the local lumber place that is in no way an architect or engineer. Inspectors never see these plans either unless they are laying around on the jobsite.
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That describes my experience with dwelling units in the 80s.

No real electrical prints.
 
iwire said:
That describes my experience with dwelling units in the 80s.

No real electrical prints.
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Now try to do competetive bidding (or at least that is what the HO thinks you are doing) with those plans. You either bid low and include nothing the owner wants and try to get it out of them later, or you include what they want and price accordingly and lose the job to someone that went with the first option. Then you get called to clean up after the owner fired the guy that was awarded the job and get to hear all the owners dislikes of the guy they hired and how much more he ended up being than what your original proposal was.:happysad:
 
kwired said:
Key words in bold. I have never used an "approved set of plans" for a dwelling unit. Most of the plans I use are floor plans only and are drawn by a guy at the local lumber place that is in no way an architect or engineer. Inspectors never see these plans either unless they are laying around on the jobsite.
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iwire said:
That describes my experience with dwelling units in the 80s.

No real electrical prints.
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Yes it is rare, if ever, for a single family home. Just describing our rules.
 
Please let me invite to everyone's attention that the NEC does not prohibit a panelboard from being inside a clothes closet. :happyno:

Read 240.24(D) again, and keep Charlie's Rule in mind.

That article presents us with "clothes closet" as an example of where "easily ignitable material" might be found. But its prohibition is not with regard to the installation of overcurrent devices in that type of room. The prohibition is with regard to the "vicinity" of the "easily ignitable material." Merely having a panel in the same room as a shelf full of clothes does not mean that the panel is close to the clothes. If you can construct a clothes closet in such a way that a panel can be in the room, but still not be in the vicinity of the clothes that are stored in the room, then you will have complied with the code requirement.

The book does not tell us how close you have to be, in order to be in "the vicinity." So my own interpretation would be three feet all around is all you need. I base that number on the working clearance distance. But that is more than just maintaining the required working clearance, since 110.26 would allow a shelf to be immediately adjacent to one side of the panel, so long as there is 30 inches of clearance towards the other side.
 
jxofaltrds said:
"such as" is why I say that it is not allowed.
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Using the language of your language lesson link, the phrase "such as" is telling us that a clothes closet is "included" in the list of places in which easily ignitable materials could be found. But that does not tell us that the panel is automatically considered to be "in the vicinity" of the clothes, simply by virtue of being in the same room. This rule is all about "vicinity." We can't put a panel in the vicinity of where clothes are stored. But we can, I submit, put one in the same room as a shelf full of clothes, so long as the panel is not "in the vicinity" of that shelf.

What I am really trying to point out here is that the phrase "such as" does not establish a connection between the words "shall not be" to the words "clothes closets." Rather, that phrase connects the words "easily ignitable materials" to the words "clothes closets."
 
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charlie b said:
Using the language of your language lesson link, the phrase "such as" is telling us that a clothes closet is "included" in the list of places in which easily ignitable materials could be found. But that does not tell us that the panel is automatically considered to be "in the vicinity" of the clothes, simply by virtue of being in the same room. This rule is all about "vicinity." We can't put a panel in the vicinity of where clothes are stored. But we can, I submit, put one in the same room as a shelf full of clothes, so long as the panel is not "in the vicinity" of that shelf.
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Maybe a retail store that sells clothing is nothing more than a big clothes closet:cool:

Where can you put the panel?
 
charlie b said:
Using the language of your language lesson link, the phrase "such as" is telling us that a clothes closet is "included" in the list of places in which easily ignitable materials could be found. But that does not tell us that the panel is automatically considered to be "in the vicinity" of the clothes, simply by virtue of being in the same room. This rule is all about "vicinity." We can't put a panel in the vicinity of where clothes are stored. But we can, I submit, put one in the same room as a shelf full of clothes, so long as the panel is not "in the vicinity" of that shelf.
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;) Love 90.4!

PS I love your logic! It helps me justify why I would allow it.
 
kwired said:
Maybe a retail store that sells clothing is nothing more than a big clothes closet:cool:
Where can you put the panel?
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Keep it far enough from the shelves of clothing to both maintain the working clearance and to assure that it is not "in the vicinity" of the shelves. :happyyes:
 
charlie b said:
Keep it far enough from the shelves of clothing to both maintain the working clearance and to assure that it is not "in the vicinity" of the shelves. :happyyes:
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I know, was just having a little fun, some guys may take that pretty serious though.
 
charlie b said:
Keep it far enough from the shelves of clothing to both maintain the working clearance and to assure that it is not "in the vicinity" of the shelves. :happyyes:
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What if there is room to add a shelf under it? And I have seen shelves across the panel cover. I contend that it would have to be dedicated, no doubts, for me to approve it.
 
jxofaltrds said:
I contend that it would have to be dedicated, no doubts, for me to approve it.
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Help me understand this statement. "What" would have to be dedicated? I know that someone could build a closet with a panel on one side and all the shelves on the other side, and then come back later and add more shelves. I understand that justifying a panel in a clothes closet would not be an easy sell. I am merely pointing out the literal meaning of the words in the rule. And I think I have correctly summarized the intent of the rule.
 
jxofaltrds said:
What if there is room to add a shelf under it? And I have seen shelves across the panel cover. I contend that it would have to be dedicated, no doubts, for me to approve it.
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You do know that they will put in shelves after you have approved the inspection and are gone, even in places other than closets.

You just complain a little and write correction notices, us poor service suckers are the ones that have to deal with poor access to the panel someday down the road.

Electrical closets - they are always jammed so full of crap you can't get to the panel even to just reset a breaker sometimes.
 
As I stated earlier, Charlie's view is the exact same as some of the members from the code making panel. Such as does not exclude the clothes closet but it has come to be interpreted as such. I just avoid them and there is no issue but I will argue the right to install the panel in the closet.
 
charlie b said:
Help me understand this statement. "What" would have to be dedicated? I know that someone could build a closet with a panel on one side and all the shelves on the other side, and then come back later and add more shelves. I understand that justifying a panel in a clothes closet would not be an easy sell. I am merely pointing out the literal meaning of the words in the rule. And I think I have correctly summarized the intent of the rule.
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Charlie and others. What I mean is if they put a panel in a small closet, put up NO shelves and tried to convince me that shelves where never to be added I would say nice try. Now take a walk-in closet with shelves on both sides and at the end of what you would call the walkway there was room on the wall for a panel I'd say OK.
 
Uniform Wiring Code, 1965: Panel Locations. Branch circuit distribution panels shall not be located in any clothes, linen, or broom closets.

Used to be a lot more cut and dry.​
 
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