Panel setup

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ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Correlation does not always mean causation

(2) 1.5x3x10 pieces of strut, do not provide the same number of 4' lengths as (1) 1.5x3x20 piece even though they contain the same total feet

(8) 2000 lumen fixtures, mounted at 9' do not have the same light distribution as (16) 1000 lumen fixtures, even though they have the same total output.

(1) electrician for 8 hours cannot always do the same work as (2) electricians for 4 hours, even though the total labor cost is the same.
And of course there is the old saw that if a woman can make a baby in nine months that doesn't mean that two of them can make one in four and a half. :D
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Hey, I hate it when people say amps per phase,..... I'm just saying sometimes thinking about the amps available at 120 you have is what works
True dat; I have seen the maximum output current for three phase PV inverters listed on data sheets as X amps per phase. It just confuses people. I guess they maybe think that if they don't express it that way some of their customers may think that they need to divide by three to determine fuse sizing, but IMO anyone that doesn't know that phase current equals line current in a balanced system should not be designing three phase PV systems.
 
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infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Yes, but it would be a 200A 240V load. It might be easier to grasp if you thought of it in terms of power rather than current.
I think that everyone is missing the point, I'm referring to only 120 volt loads. The question is can you add 200+200 and the answer is yes. It was stated earlier in this thread that you cannot add 200+200 when referring to a 200 amps,120/240, 1Ø service but you can if all of the loads are 120 volts.

In my example there are 20-20 amp (400 amps), 120 volt heaters 10 on each leg. 200 amps will be from leg A to neutral and 200 amps will be from leg B to neutral. So with only 120 volt loads one can have 400 amps worth of heaters connected to the 200 amp 120/240 service.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I think that everyone is missing the point, I'm referring to only 120 volt loads. The question is can you add 200+200 and the answer is yes. It was stated earlier in this thread that you cannot add 200+200 when referring to a 200 amps,120/240, 1Ø service but you can if all of the loads are 120 volts.
Sort of. 200A line to neutral on line 1 and 200A line to neutral on line 2 is only 200A total on the service. The question you are referring to was whether a two pole 200A main breaker could supply 400A at 240V to a service because it is 200A per phase, and the answer to that is no.
 

TwoBlocked

Senior Member
Location
Bradford County, PA
Occupation
Industrial Electrician
I think that everyone is missing the point, I'm referring to only 120 volt loads. The question is can you add 200+200 and the answer is yes. It was stated earlier in this thread that you cannot add 200+200 when referring to a 200 amps,120/240, 1Ø service but you can if all of the loads are 120 volts.

In my example there are 20-20 amp (400 amps), 120 volt heaters 10 on each leg. 200 amps will be from leg A to neutral and 200 amps will be from leg B to neutral. So with only 120 volt loads one can have 400 amps worth of heaters connected to the 200 amp 120/240 service.
Great job at being a devil's advocate, Rob!

My turn. No you cannot do what you say as it would be a code violation. You have a panel that is expected to provide 100% load. It should only provide 80% of it's rated capacity.

But that is not what is really being hashed out here. This is not a parallel circuit where all the current flows are added. This is a series/parallel circuit where two sets of parallel loads are in series. It is also not a 120V circuit. It is a 240V circuit. The same current that flows through the first parallel circuit also flows through the second. No current goes through the neutral. That is a red herring. You can add the voltages across the two parallel circuits (120 + 120 = 240) but you cannot add the currents together any more than you could add the the currents in each turn of a coil.

Of course you know all this Bob. :) And it's a great opportunity for the rest of us to sort out the puzzle to get things clearer in our heads.
 

letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
Great job at being a devil's advocate, Rob!

My turn. No you cannot do what you say as it would be a code violation. You have a panel that is expected to provide 100% load. It should only provide 80% of it's rated capacity.

But that is not what is really being hashed out here. This is not a parallel circuit where all the current flows are added. This is a series/parallel circuit where two sets of parallel loads are in series. It is also not a 120V circuit. It is a 240V circuit. The same current that flows through the first parallel circuit also flows through the second. No current goes through the neutral. That is a red herring. You can add the voltages across the two parallel circuits (120 + 120 = 240) but you cannot add the currents together any more than you could add the the currents in each turn of a coil.

Of course you know all this Bob. :) And it's a great opportunity for the rest of us to sort out the puzzle to get things clearer in our heads.
That many space heaters would still fit the calc even with 80% derating. But yes this is all hypothetical towards making the point.

ANSWER

LOAD CALCS ARE DONE IN VA AT A SYSTEM VOLTAGE

THATS IT

All the other fluff is just semantics and it's all making new guys scratch their heads. Lots of people go here to learn I did for 8 years before I ever contributed so I think we should keep this in mind. VA calcs tell you how much Power will move through a breaker without tripping with all the information needed. This other stuff is getting to the point like when you ask an HVAC guy your MCA for an condenser and they say it's 3 tons and you have you keep repeating yourself to get a real answer.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
That many space heaters would still fit the calc even with 80% derating. But yes this is all hypothetical towards making the point.

ANSWER

LOAD CALCS ARE DONE IN VA AT A SYSTEM VOLTAGE

THATS IT

All the other fluff is just semantics and it's all making new guys scratch their heads. Lots of people go here to learn I did for 8 years before I ever contributed so I think we should keep this in mind. VA calcs tell you how much Power will move through a breaker without tripping with all the information needed. This other stuff is getting to the point like when you ask an HVAC guy your MCA for an condenser and they say it's 3 tons and you have you keep repeating yourself to get a real answer.
Technically it is watts, but I agree that is the important information, but we are quibbling over the OP question, so let us get back to it.;)
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Agrees, and I don't like it when people talk backwards. The load has to be calculated at 125% under many different conditions. I am not aware of anywhere that the code references 80% of anything.
Well, 0.8 is the math reciprocal of 1.25. You can multiply one number by 1.25 or the other by 0.8 and it will get you to the same answer.
 

4-20mA

an analog man in a digital world
Location
Charleston SC
Occupation
Instrumentation & Electrical
Maybe looking at it backwards is the trick. Think of it like a generator. You have a 50amps available. Each leg can use the amps but overall, neither can exceed the 50. When both legs show they are using 40 amps, the generator is not providing 80 amps...
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
Well, 0.8 is the math reciprocal of 1.25. You can multiply one number by 1.25 or the other by 0.8 and it will get you to the same answer.
But as I stated, it isn't in the code book. When discussing and especially when instructing, I am a firm believer in referencing the code and the code language. Say what you mean, mean what you say.
 
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