Parallel feeders single phase
- Thread starter wayne123
- Start date
- Status
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
This conversation has been going on for weeks and 6 pages and your offer is you have your own shoes. :roll:
Roger
[ June 05, 2005, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Then what's your point?
This conversation has been going on for weeks and 6 pages and your offer is you have your own shoes. :roll:
Roger
[ June 05, 2005, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
My feet stink.
Just so ya know.
Keep your sticks on the ice, fellas.
My feet stink.
Just so ya know.
Keep your sticks on the ice, fellas.
karl riley
Senior Member
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
Roger, you might do well to re-read your posts and think how you would feel if others spoke to you in that way when they were simply discussing a technical matter.
You opinion is valuable. No need to inject implied insults in this forum.
Karl
Roger, you might do well to re-read your posts and think how you would feel if others spoke to you in that way when they were simply discussing a technical matter.
You opinion is valuable. No need to inject implied insults in this forum.
Karl
james wuebker
Senior Member
- Location
- Iowa
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
So now everyone, lets get back to the original question. What we have learned about this installation, Is it wrong or OK? I believe it's not correct. Now for all other things that didn't have nothing to do with the answer for this topic, It's been a good learning experience.
Jim
So now everyone, lets get back to the original question. What we have learned about this installation, Is it wrong or OK? I believe it's not correct. Now for all other things that didn't have nothing to do with the answer for this topic, It's been a good learning experience.
Jim
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
Without knowing that we can not determine if it is an NEC violation or not.
All we have been able to tell is some people get hot when not everybody shares the same opinion.
Jim as far as I can see we where never told if non ferris wiring methods where used.
Without knowing that we can not determine if it is an NEC violation or not.
All we have been able to tell is some people get hot when not everybody shares the same opinion.
milwaukeesteve
Senior Member
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
OK Sorry it took so long, but I am back after a week of funeral stuff
Don, to get back to your question concerning 300.3(B)(3)Nonferrous Wiring Methods... the example you spelled out is backwards.
The code rule states that single conductors (or paralleled that act as single) may be ran in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or nonmagnetic sheath, where ran in different raceways.
This code rule states that the single conductors may be ran in a Nonmetallic raceway(ie PVC, listed MI, listed MC, LFNC, ENT). These wiring methods however MUST be ran inside another raceway (ie, wireway, trough, cabinet).
This way all of the phase conductors will have nonmetallic sheathing but will be force to be 'in proximity' since they will be inside another raceway. That raceway can be any material since all the phases will be within the confines of that raceway, thus cancellation occurs.
This code rule is why I say PVC raceway cannot be used as sole raceway means for parallel conductors (if running same phase), unless ran underground as in 300.3(b)(1)exception.
OK Sorry it took so long, but I am back after a week of funeral stuff
Don, to get back to your question concerning 300.3(B)(3)Nonferrous Wiring Methods... the example you spelled out is backwards.
The code rule states that single conductors (or paralleled that act as single) may be ran in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or nonmagnetic sheath, where ran in different raceways.
This code rule states that the single conductors may be ran in a Nonmetallic raceway(ie PVC, listed MI, listed MC, LFNC, ENT). These wiring methods however MUST be ran inside another raceway (ie, wireway, trough, cabinet).
This way all of the phase conductors will have nonmetallic sheathing but will be force to be 'in proximity' since they will be inside another raceway. That raceway can be any material since all the phases will be within the confines of that raceway, thus cancellation occurs.
This code rule is why I say PVC raceway cannot be used as sole raceway means for parallel conductors (if running same phase), unless ran underground as in 300.3(b)(1)exception.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
[ June 06, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
[ June 06, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
Steve,
Steve,
Exactly, nonmetallic sheaths in different ferrous raceways. How does that work?
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
I have watched this thread and have read and reread some of the post. I am of the opinion that all sides are loosing the site of the original post which has to do with a parallel single phase service.
I think that through this discussion the total of 300.3 was lost. Every one is trying to pick one section to prove their point and no one is using the complete article. Let?s in a calm manner look at 300.3
The only change between ?02 and ?05 is an exception was added to (A) which is not being debated.
(B) Simply states that all conductors of a circuit must be run together.
(B) (1) simply states that parallel conductors need to comply with 310.4 and if in a cable tray they must be bound together.
(B) (2) talks about the grounding and bonding conductor and lets us install these on the outside of the raceway
(B) (3) here we seem to have a problem in the wording. The first eleven words of this section are being misunderstood.
Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath,
These words say that a wire that is part of a cable (sheath) such as IGS, MI and MC cables that come larger than 1/0. Through the referrals of these cables we find that these must be grouped together also.
Wayne if I was the inspector on that job I would leave a noncompliance and it would be changed.
now kiss and make up
[ June 06, 2005, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
I have watched this thread and have read and reread some of the post. I am of the opinion that all sides are loosing the site of the original post which has to do with a parallel single phase service.
I think that through this discussion the total of 300.3 was lost. Every one is trying to pick one section to prove their point and no one is using the complete article. Let?s in a calm manner look at 300.3
The only change between ?02 and ?05 is an exception was added to (A) which is not being debated.
(B) Simply states that all conductors of a circuit must be run together.
(B) (1) simply states that parallel conductors need to comply with 310.4 and if in a cable tray they must be bound together.
(B) (2) talks about the grounding and bonding conductor and lets us install these on the outside of the raceway
(B) (3) here we seem to have a problem in the wording. The first eleven words of this section are being misunderstood.
Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath,
These words say that a wire that is part of a cable (sheath) such as IGS, MI and MC cables that come larger than 1/0. Through the referrals of these cables we find that these must be grouped together also.
Wayne if I was the inspector on that job I would leave a noncompliance and it would be changed.
now kiss and make up[ June 06, 2005, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
wayne123
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
The job did not pass inspection!! I am trying to get in touch with the super today to find out what didn't pass.
The job did not pass inspection!! I am trying to get in touch with the super today to find out what didn't pass.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
JW,
Don
JW,
How does this work? I see no restriction on placing multiple nonmetallic sheathed cables, of a single circuit, in multiple ferrous raceways. The wording needs major work for the 2008 code. It is still my opinion that PVC conduit is a "nonmetallic wiring method" and this section permits the use of conductors in PVC raceways as well as nonmetallic sheathed cables. As I said the wording is very poor and this section can be read in multiple ways. I choose to read it as stated above. You, among others, choose to read it differently. If we all read the code rules the same way there would be no need for this forum.
Don
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
Don
The way that I am reading article 300.3 is that I must follow what is outlined in (B) except as outlined in 1-3.
The only part that there seems to be a disagreement on is (3) so I will recap (B) then look a (3).
(B) states that paralleled conductors shall be contained within the same raceway
Now what does (3) say?
Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, where run in different raceways,?.. or cords, shall comply with the provisions of 300.20(B).
(we already have been told that if conductors are installed in a cable tray they must be bundled together in (1))
The key to (3) is the first eleven words which clearly state that (3) is talking a bout a cable or cord by the referral to sheath. The word sheath is used through out the code and is always referred to as inclosing conductors as outlined in the definition of MC cable.
Metal Clad Cable, Type MC. A factory assembly of one or more insulated circuit conductors with or without optical fiber members enclosed in an armor of interlocking metal tape, or a smooth or corrugated metallic sheath. Also see 332.2, 320.120, 334.2 ect
By using other articles of the code such as 310.4 (must be 1/0 or larger) and the articles on cable and cords we will find that there is a limited number of cords and cables that have a sheath and conductors 1/0 or larger.
A couple of the cords would be types EV, EVT, G, G-GC, PPE, SC, and W as outlined in 400.
The only cables that I am aware of are IGS, MC, MI, and SE
The way I am reading 300.3 is that if it is a conductor such as TW, THW, and THHW then it must comply with (B) but if it is enclosed in a sheath that is nonmetallic or nonmagnetic then it can be in a different nonmagnetic raceway and comply with 300.20 (B)
The only place that I can see where a conductor can be run in parallel in separate raceways is in the exception found under (B)(1).
We must keep in mind that a single conductor has insulation not a sheath. Therefore I cannot find in 300.3 (B) (3) where I am allowed to install a single insulated conductor such as TW, THW, THHW in parallel in different raceways.
[ June 08, 2005, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
Don
The way that I am reading article 300.3 is that I must follow what is outlined in (B) except as outlined in 1-3.
The only part that there seems to be a disagreement on is (3) so I will recap (B) then look a (3).
(B) states that paralleled conductors shall be contained within the same raceway
Now what does (3) say?
Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, where run in different raceways,?.. or cords, shall comply with the provisions of 300.20(B).
(we already have been told that if conductors are installed in a cable tray they must be bundled together in (1))
The key to (3) is the first eleven words which clearly state that (3) is talking a bout a cable or cord by the referral to sheath. The word sheath is used through out the code and is always referred to as inclosing conductors as outlined in the definition of MC cable.
Metal Clad Cable, Type MC. A factory assembly of one or more insulated circuit conductors with or without optical fiber members enclosed in an armor of interlocking metal tape, or a smooth or corrugated metallic sheath. Also see 332.2, 320.120, 334.2 ect
By using other articles of the code such as 310.4 (must be 1/0 or larger) and the articles on cable and cords we will find that there is a limited number of cords and cables that have a sheath and conductors 1/0 or larger.
A couple of the cords would be types EV, EVT, G, G-GC, PPE, SC, and W as outlined in 400.
The only cables that I am aware of are IGS, MC, MI, and SE
The way I am reading 300.3 is that if it is a conductor such as TW, THW, and THHW then it must comply with (B) but if it is enclosed in a sheath that is nonmetallic or nonmagnetic then it can be in a different nonmagnetic raceway and comply with 300.20 (B)
The only place that I can see where a conductor can be run in parallel in separate raceways is in the exception found under (B)(1).
We must keep in mind that a single conductor has insulation not a sheath. Therefore I cannot find in 300.3 (B) (3) where I am allowed to install a single insulated conductor such as TW, THW, THHW in parallel in different raceways.
[ June 08, 2005, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
Metal Clad Cable, Type MC. A factory assembly of one or more insulated circuit conductors with or without optical fiber members enclosed in an armor of interlocking metal tape, or a smooth or corrugated metallic sheath . Also see 332.2, 320.120, 334.2 ect
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
edited to do the bolding
[ June 08, 2005, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
Nonmetallic- Sheathed Cable. A factory assembly of two or more insulated conductors enclosed within an overall nonmetallic jacket .
edited to do the bolding
[ June 08, 2005, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
332.2 Definition.
Mineral-Insulated, Metal-Sheathed Cable, Type MI. A factory assembly of one or more conductors insulated with a highly compressed refractory mineral insulation and enclosed in a liquidtight and gastight continuous copper or alloy steel sheath.
332.2 Definition.
Mineral-Insulated, Metal-Sheathed Cable, Type MI. A factory assembly of one or more conductors insulated with a highly compressed refractory mineral insulation and enclosed in a liquidtight and gastight continuous copper or alloy steel sheath.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: Parallel feeders single phase
300.6 Protection Against Corrosion and Deterioration.
Raceways, cable trays, cablebus, auxiliary gutters, cable armor, boxes, cable sheathing ,
[ June 08, 2005, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
300.6 Protection Against Corrosion and Deterioration.
Raceways, cable trays, cablebus, auxiliary gutters, cable armor, boxes, cable sheathing ,
[ June 08, 2005, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
- Status