Parallel feeders single phase

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Re: Parallel feeders single phase

250.84 Underground Service Cable or Raceway.
(A) Underground Service Cable. The sheath or armor of a continuous underground metal-sheathed or armored service cable

800.1 Cable Sheath. A covering over the conductor assembly that may include one or more metallic members, strength members, or jackets.

800.50 (C) (1) are in metal-sheathed cable,

310.8 (C) (1) Moisture-impervious metal-sheathed;

314.3 Nonmetallic Boxes.
Nonmetallic boxes shall be permitted only with open wiring on insulators, concealed knob-and-tube wiring, cabled wiring methods with entirely nonmetallic sheaths, flexible cords, and nonmetallic raceways.

I could go on for two or three pages but I think that this proves that a sheath is not included in the insulation definition, do you?
:)
 
Re: Parallel feeders single phase

Roger asks
So, the sheath is defined as a Jacket when speaking of nometalic sheaths, correct?
Click to expand...
I do believe that the sheathing goes on after the insulation and is to offer a form of protection to the insulation that insulates against current leakage. It could be nonmetallic or metallic. For a comparison see 334 and 332.

edited to get article number right
:)

[ June 08, 2005, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
 
Re: Parallel feeders single phase

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I do believe that the sheathing goes on after the insulation and is to offer a form of protection to the insulation that insulates against current leakage. It could be nonmetallic or metallic. For a comparison see 334 and 332.

edited to get article number right
:)
Click to expand...
So go to 310.13 and count how many conductor types have a Nonmetallic Jacket which by your own admission or interpretation is a sheath, meaning even a single conductor can comply with these words;
Nonferrous Wiring Methods. Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, where run in different raceways, auxiliary gutters, cable trays, trenches, cables, or cords ...
Click to expand...
We can't selectively apply the word sheath to what we want it to apply to.

The NEC hasn't decided to add a definition to article 100, yet it uses the definition for multiple articles which is both single conductors and cable assemblies.

Roger

[ June 08, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: Parallel feeders single phase

310.13 Conductor Constructions and Applications.
Insulated conductors shall comply with the applicable provisions of one or more of the following: Table 310.13, Table 310.61, Table 310.62, Table 310.63, and Table 310.64.
These conductors shall be permitted for use in any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 and as specified in their respective tables or as permitted elsewhere in this Code.

Now Roger I can?t believe that you a man with such a strong back ground in electrical knowledge don?t understand that, ?These conductors shall be permitted for use in any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3? would not include conductors encased in a sheath that is either metallic or nonmetallic.

By the very definition of the cable articles it states that cables are encased in some sort of sheathing. Neither you nor anyone else can deny the very definition as outlined in the cable articles.

300.3 (B) (3) states that if you are going to parallel conductors and not run them in the same raceway they MUST be in a sheath. This is NOT an opinion, this is NOT an interruption but is verbatim quoting 300.3 (B) (3).
I understand how hard it is to admit when we are wrong and weather you do or not doesn?t change the fact that you have called this one wrong !
 
Re: Parallel feeders single phase

jw,
300.3 (B) (3) states that if you are going to parallel conductors and not run them in the same raceway they MUST be in a sheath.
Click to expand...
But the section has no restriction on the type of raceway. The only raceways that are suitable for this application would be nonferous ones...the code section doesn't say that. It is my opinion that the words do not reflect the intent of the panel. It needs to be revised.
Don
 
Re: Parallel feeders single phase

JW, there you go again with a long winded defense of your mistake, I will point out again,
Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath
Click to expand...
notice the word Conductors and read how many conductor types in 310.13 has a nonmetallic sheath, which as you pointed out is a Jacket.

Why would you change your mind now.


These conductors shall be permitted for use in any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 and as specified in their respective tables or as permitted elsewhere in this Code.
Click to expand...
What are you discussing, everyone else is discussing 300.3 is this not permitted as a chapter 3 wiring method?

These conductors shall be permitted for use in any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3
Click to expand...
Yes that is true, and 300.3 (B)(3) is a recognized chapter 3 method, so what are you talking about here?

Neither you nor anyone else can deny the very definition as outlined in the cable articles.
Click to expand...
And the same definition is used in single conductors in 310.13, see the last column Outer Covering of THHN and notice Nylon jacket or equivilent so how can you deny this single conductor has a sheath?

300.3 (B) (3) states that if you are going to parallel conductors and not run them in the same raceway they MUST be in a sheath.
Click to expand...
Yep, that's what it says and THHN for one is in a sheath by being in a Jacket.

JW, I understand how hard it is to admit when we are wrong and weather you do or not doesn?t change the fact that you have called this one wrong ! :D :D :D

The fact is, as bad as you hate to admitt it, this can go either way as shown by all of our interpretations, and the wording of this section needs some serious reworking as pointed out by some well respected people in this thread, so get over it. ;)

Roger
 
Re: Parallel feeders single phase

Don
300.3 (B) tells us that ?All conductors of the same circuit ?. shall be contained within the same raceway,?

In 300.3 (B) (3) it tells us ?Conductors in wiring methods with a nonmetallic or other nonmagnetic sheath, where run in different raceways,?
Here it is clear that these conductors are required to have an outer sheath. Some have been debating that the conductor insulation is the sheathing but this is not correct.
The other point that is being debated is the heating effects of a single phase that is run in a single raceway.
This is covered in 300.20.

300.20 Induced Currents in Metal Enclosures or Metal Raceways.
(A) Conductors Grouped Together. Where conductors carrying alternating current are installed in metal enclosures or metal raceways, they shall be arranged so as to avoid heating the surrounding metal by induction. To accomplish this, all phase conductors and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors shall be grouped together.

This is why I made this statement to Roger:
300.3 (B) (3) states that if you are going to parallel conductors and not run them in the same raceway they MUST be in a sheath.

The only way that phases can be separated when ran in parallel is if those conductors are first encased in some type of sheath.
If conductors as found in table 310.16 are to be paralleled they are required to be ran all phases in each raceway weather that raceway is PVC, metal or cable tray.
 
Re: Parallel feeders single phase

Roger
Are you having a hard time?

It is found at MI cable
Paper cable
And in note 8 8 Insulation thickness shall be permitted to be 2.03 mm (80 mils) for listed Type USE conductors that have been subjected to special investigations. The nonmetallic covering over individual rubber-covered conductors of aluminum-sheathed cable and of lead-sheathed or multiconductor cable shall not be required to be flame retardant. For Type MC cable, see 330.104. For nonmetallic-sheathed cable, see Article 334, Part III. For Type UF cable, see Article 340, Part III.

All of these are a cable
:)
 
Re: Parallel feeders single phase

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Roger
Show me the word sheath in 310.13 PLEASE

HURRY
Click to expand...
JW, you have already admitted a sheath is a Jacket.

Anyways, you and some others say it's not allowed, and some of us say it is, so I'm done. (meant to be a few days ago)

I know you have bigger fish to fry, there must be a table lamp being plugged into SA branch circuit that needs to be discussed somewhere. ;)

Don't get mad, that was a joke.

Roger
 
Re: Parallel feeders single phase

See Roger try as hard as you can you still can?t justify running single conductor in parallel with one phase in one pipe no matter how hard you try unless it is part of a cable or cord assembly or it complies with 300.3 (B) (1) exception.

Call the sheath a jacket if you want to, the book says sheath.

I have made the mistake of running parallel one phase one PVC. Three pipes into a single phase panel. One day later the lugs was welded, the screws in the LB broke instead of turning and the pipe was deformed. The disconnect would not disengage and cut the whole thing out with a saw. The tape on the split bolts where I made the tap had melted. Cost me a little money so I learned. :eek:

Where is that lamp at? What is the address? What county or city?
I shall not stand for this. Up plug that &*$%* lamp NOW!
:D
PS I still love ya
 
Re: Parallel feeders single phase

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Where is that lamp at? What is the address? What county or city?
I shall not stand for this. Up plug that &*$%* lamp NOW!
:D
PS I still love ya
Click to expand...
Yeah, me too. ;)

Roger
 
Re: Parallel feeders single phase

Belatedly;
The following may have some bearing for those who, like I, read the dead stuff.

Excerped from NFPA 70 ? May 2001 ROP ? Copyright 2000, NFPA


3- 9 - (300-3(3)): Reject
SUBMITTER: Jonathan DaBoi Saravia, E. Freetown, MA
RECOMMENDATION: In the first sentence add the word
paralleled as the first word.
SUBSTANTI3ATION: This section permits conductors of the same circuit contained in nonferrous or other nonmagnetic wiring methods to be in separate raceways. I believe the intent
was to make an exception for parallel conductors contained in nonferrous or other nonmagnetic wiring methods, but that is not how this section currently reads. The word parallel must appear
in this section to clarify the intent.
PANEL ACTION: Reject.
PANEL STATEMENT: This section applies not only to paralleled conductors but also to single conductors run in nonmagnetic wiring methods. Single conductors with a nonmetallic sheath
that are not run in parallel can be installed in a trench with entry into a magnetic metal enclosure requiring compliance with
Section 300-20(b).
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 11
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 11
 
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