Most likely on the AC input side if it is a plain rectifier
Paralleling of Bridge Rectifiers
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FionaZuppa
Senior Member
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- AZ
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- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
it is by way of a "isolation" relay controlled by the MCU
the crude schematic is a components/module layout gram, hard to tell what is logical and what is physical. is the ATS switch itself a quad coil 3PDT latching relay, a pair of push pull coils ??
Correct
this is a ge/zenith transfer switch
basically a few variations
1 rectifier supplying both the N and E coils
1 rectifier each
same variation for the switch with a C position plus N and E
variations with the number of solenoids, sometimes a common one, sometimes one per position
A crude approximation of the ckt?
DC source 0.9 x ac V rms
switch
a resistor sized for a drop 1.4 V at SS current
an L sized based on 22 Ohm and 120 Hz
all in series closed loop
The original question was about paralleling rectifiers.
At the risk of repetition, the simple solution is to put in bigger rectifier modules.
To that extent, I offered part numbers for units that would probably be more than adequate for the application.
AC in, DC out from a plain rectifier.
No closed loop.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
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- AZ
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- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
agreed, just get new single bridge, done.
but i am still curious about the switch, is it a 3PDT latch quad coil ?
Best ask the OP that question.
Better be a closed loop or no i flow
Load is L inductive
load i = Vdc/R (1 - e^(-t/RcL)) upon switch closing
R = R1 1.4 drop + Rc dc coil
Closed loop systems require feedback that modifies the input to the system.
Error actuated and power amplifying is one good description of a closed loop system.
A plain rectifier is not an example of that.
we are not talking about a control system feedback control
like for voltage regulation or temperature regulation
but an electrical ckt regarding i and v, not adherence to a setpoint
I did not say a closed loop system
I listed components, no amps, controllers, sensors, actuators
And said all in a series closed loop
a feedback closed loop system has a parallel feedback branch
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Closed loop is gerenally taken to mean just that.
A series circuit would better describe your interpretation.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
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- AZ
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- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
what do you mean by 1 rectifier each?
the dotted boxes are the control relays that feed "isolated" line V to the bridges, control relays are 24vac and are controlled by the MX100 (MCU).
to me this center section looks like 4 bridges and a quad coil latching 3PDT, or just a 3PDT with some sort of mechanical gang of the solenoids.
KVL
The algebraic sum of the products of the resistances of the conductors and the currents in them in a closed loop is equal to the total emf available in that loop.
Control loops never mentioned
4 components
dc supply
switch
R
L
in "a SERIES closed loop"
no mention of
feedback
controllers
inputs or outputs
The algebraic sum of the products of the resistances of the conductors and the currents in them in a closed loop is equal to the total emf available in that loop.
Control loops never mentioned
4 components
dc supply
switch
R
L
in "a SERIES closed loop"
no mention of
feedback
controllers
inputs or outputs
what do you mean by 1 rectifier each?
the dotted boxes are the control relays that feed "isolated" line V to the bridges, control relays are 24vac and are controlled by the MX100 (MCU).
to me this center section looks like 4 bridges and a quad coil latching 3PDT, or just a 3PDT with some sort of mechanical gang of the solenoids.
one dedicated rectifier per coil
a closed loop when discussing a ckt means one in which current can flow
The directed sum of the electrical potential differences (voltage) around any closed network is zero, or:
More simply, the sum of the emfs in any closed loop is equivalent to the sum of the potential drops in that loop, or:
The algebraic sum of the products of the resistances of the conductors and the currents in them in a closed loop is equal to the total emf available in that loop.
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Fine. That's your take.
it's also Kirchoff's
The directed sum of the electrical potential differences (voltage) around any closed network is zero, or:
More simply, the sum of the emfs in any closed loop is equivalent to the sum of the potential drops in that loop, or:
The algebraic sum of the products of the resistances of the conductors and the currents in them in a closed loop is equal to the total emf available in that loop.
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Finegood.
My point remains. A bigger bridge would be a better solution than trying to operate units in parallel.
ATSman
ATSman
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- San Francisco Bay Area
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- Electrical Engineer/ Electrical Testing & Controls
PIV Rating
PIV Rating
Further info relating to the subject from an ASCO service center guy I know. Part of an email thread, read from bottom up:
Yes -Asco has standardized on a 35 amp 1200 PIV-we outsource 45 amp 1600 PIV-believe that here in lightning alley our diode failures are PIV (from transients) or inductive kick from coils-if banter is about a local problem,they should source larger ampere rating and/or higher PIV ; parallel diodes do not load share exactly due to forward voltage drop differences--if writer thinks overcurrent is the problem ,he should move to higher ampere rating,,raise both values if unsure-I think some of those small bridges will stand 800 amps first half cycle-not worth the fight but I think Asco should add a wheeling diode to their brick-final irony,I know all bridges in a series are mass produced,priced to tested value-the 1200 and our 1600 are probably same guts-we chose caution in our 1600 decision
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tony Tonon" <tonytonon@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Patrick McGovern" <powerman1@cableone.net>
Cc: "Tony" <tonytonon@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 1:19:48 PM
Subject: Re: Electrical Banter
tks Pat
based on the sketches and dwgs I sent would you agree that when applying dc
to a solenoid with a 80ms pulse the high PIV rating of the bridge ckt is more important
than the foward current rating?
This is why in the original GE design they use 2 diodes in series of each 4 legs of
the quad bridge shown in the jpg pic.
Tony
PIV Rating
Further info relating to the subject from an ASCO service center guy I know. Part of an email thread, read from bottom up:
Yes -Asco has standardized on a 35 amp 1200 PIV-we outsource 45 amp 1600 PIV-believe that here in lightning alley our diode failures are PIV (from transients) or inductive kick from coils-if banter is about a local problem,they should source larger ampere rating and/or higher PIV ; parallel diodes do not load share exactly due to forward voltage drop differences--if writer thinks overcurrent is the problem ,he should move to higher ampere rating,,raise both values if unsure-I think some of those small bridges will stand 800 amps first half cycle-not worth the fight but I think Asco should add a wheeling diode to their brick-final irony,I know all bridges in a series are mass produced,priced to tested value-the 1200 and our 1600 are probably same guts-we chose caution in our 1600 decision
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tony Tonon" <tonytonon@sbcglobal.net>
To: "Patrick McGovern" <powerman1@cableone.net>
Cc: "Tony" <tonytonon@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 1:19:48 PM
Subject: Re: Electrical Banter
tks Pat
based on the sketches and dwgs I sent would you agree that when applying dc
to a solenoid with a 80ms pulse the high PIV rating of the bridge ckt is more important
than the foward current rating?
This is why in the original GE design they use 2 diodes in series of each 4 legs of
the quad bridge shown in the jpg pic.
Tony
It is done all the time, but there is a catch. Like batteries in parallel, you will have a bank that is better then the (lower internal resistance) thus doing most of the work and wearing itself out prematurely. When that happens it takes the others with it. When you lose one rectifier, the others can quickly become over loaded.
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