PE Stamping with customer specification

[Ingenieur]

I think in a broad way he is probably right about what the sealing means. It just means the PE is taking responsibility for what is under his seal. It is not a declaration that he made no mistakes or applied any particular code or specification.

it is a declaration that he did due diligence to comply with applicable codes and good practice
and he attempted to comply with the client's desired outcome

 

[Ingenieur]

Bob is right. I have no desire to ignore code or contract clauses or client desires. I would not seal and sign a document unless I was confident that it met all requirements. I stand by my earlier statement. But let me expand on it a bit.

The seal and signature means:

• This work was done by me or under my supervision, and so therefore,
• If it does not meet code, take me to task for the error, and
• If it does not meet contract requirements, take me to task for the error, and
• If it does not meet client expectations, take me to task for the error, and finally
• By sealing and signing this document, I hereby give up any possibility of shifting the blame onto anyone else.

Does that make sense?

you have a legal OBLIGATION to design to code (among other things)
by sealing the docs you attest that you excercised due diligence to do so

 

[charlie b]

I must continue to disagree. Yes, I have a legal obligation to perform design work in compliance with codes. But my seal and signature does not attest that I have done so. It just means, essentially, “Bring the lawsuit here.” Yes, I will ensure that my designs do comply with code, before I seal and sign them. That is how I protect myself against such lawsuits. Any PE would do an injustice to himself or herself and to the profession if they don’t exercise due diligence to ensure everything is designed to code, and to do that before sealing and signing the documents.

But still, all the seal and signature attest to is that the PE is taking responsibility for the work. Here is a quote from Washington State law:

Such signature and stamping shall constitute a certification by the registrant that the same was prepared by or under his or her direct supervision and that to his or her knowledge and belief the same was prepared in accordance with the requirements of the statute.

The “statute” to which this refers is the one that requires a person to be registered before performing, or offering to perform, engineering work. The law does not say that the PE is attesting to having complied with code.

 

[Ingenieur]

I must continue to disagree. Yes, I have a legal obligation to perform design work in compliance with codes. But my seal and signature does not attest that I have done so. It just means, essentially, “Bring the lawsuit here.” Yes, I will ensure that my designs do comply with code, before I seal and sign them. That is how I protect myself against such lawsuits. Any PE would do an injustice to himself or herself and to the profession if they don’t exercise due diligence to ensure everything is designed to code, and to do that before sealing and signing the documents.

But still, all the seal and signature attest to is that the PE is taking responsibility for the work. Here is a quote from Washington State law: The “statute” to which this refers is the one that requires a person to be registered before performing, or offering to perform, engineering work. The law does not say that the PE is attesting to having complied with code.

you can disagree all you desire
doesn't change the fact you have the legal obligation to design by code and attest that you exercised due dilligence to do do
it does not warrant correctness, only that you attempted to do so and did not deliberately ignore the safety and welfare of the public

PA law
Engineers shall approve only those engineering documents that are in conformity with applicable standards.

 

[flatlander]

I must continue to disagree. Yes, I have a legal obligation to perform design work in compliance with codes. But my seal and signature does not attest that I have done so. It just means, essentially, “Bring the lawsuit here.” Yes, I will ensure that my designs do comply with code, before I seal and sign them. That is how I protect myself against such lawsuits. Any PE would do an injustice to himself or herself and to the profession if they don’t exercise due diligence to ensure everything is designed to code, and to do that before sealing and signing the documents.

But still, all the seal and signature attest to is that the PE is taking responsibility for the work. Here is a quote from Washington State law: The “statute” to which this refers is the one that requires a person to be registered before performing, or offering to perform, engineering work. The law does not say that the PE is attesting to having complied with code.

you can disagree all you desire
doesn't change the fact you have the legal obligation to design by code and attest that you exercised due dilligence to do do
it does not warrant correctness, only that you attempted to do so and did not deliberately ignore the safety and welfare of the public

PA law
Engineers shall approve only those engineering documents that are in conformity with applicable standards.

Anyone that thinks that such a stamp does not attest the to the best of their knowledge the plans are true and correct and comply with code is just a XXXXX.

 

[charlie b]

. . . doesn't change the fact you have the legal obligation to design by code and attest that you exercised due diligence. . . .

Anyone that thinks that such a stamp does not attest the to the best of their knowledge the plans are true and correct and comply with code is just a XXXXX

I have the obligation to design by code. But the seal does not attest to that. Please reread the law I quote in post 23. I am only attesting that I did the work.

 

[charlie b]

PA law
Engineers shall approve only those engineering documents that are in conformity with applicable standards.

Once again, I agree that I have to design to codes and standards. I see that PA law clearly requires that, but I suspect that part is fairly universal. Now show me the PA law that says that the seal attests to my having designed to code. I showed you the WA law that says I attest to the fact that I did the work.

 

[Ingenieur]

paramount: life, safety health/welfare of the public
code, standards, good practice seem like a good start
when I seal I attest I excercised due dilligence and strived to place these interests above my own
it is imo not a 'trademark' or 'statement of authorship'
it is an oath
that's just me

agree to disagree
peace

 

[Ingenieur]

Once again, I agree that I have to design to codes and standards. I see that PA law clearly requires that, but I suspect that part is fairly universal. Now show me the PA law that says that the seal attests to my having designed to code. I showed you the WA law that says I attest to the fact that I did the work.

approve = seal
applicable standards = codes, etc

 

[petersonra]

This is what Illinois law says about the seal.

(225 ILCS 325/14) (from Ch. 111, par. 5214)
(Section scheduled to be repealed on January 1, 2020)
Sec. 14. Seal. Every professional engineer shall have a seal or stamp, the print of which shall be reproducible and contain the name of the professional engineer, the professional engineer's license number, and the words "Licensed Professional Engineer of Illinois". Any reproducible stamp heretofore authorized under the laws of this state for use by a professional engineer, including those with the words "Registered Professional Engineer of Illinois", shall serve the same purpose as the seal provided for by this Act. The engineer shall be responsible for his seal and signature as defined by rule. When technical submissions are prepared utilizing a computer or other electronic means, the seal may be generated by the computer. The licensee may provide, at his or her sole discretion, an original signature in the licensee's handwriting, a scanned copy of the technical submission bearing an original signature, or a signature generated by a computer.
The use of a professional engineer's seal on technical submissions constitutes a representation by the professional engineer that the work has been prepared by or under the personal supervision of the professional engineer or developed in conjunction with the use of accepted engineering standards. The use of the seal further represents that the work has been prepared and administered in accordance with the standards of reasonable professional skill and diligence.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Once again, I agree that I have to design to codes and standards. I see that PA law clearly requires that, but I suspect that part is fairly universal. Now show me the PA law that says that the seal attests to my having designed to code. I showed you the WA law that says I attest to the fact that I did the work.

paramount: life, safety health/welfare of the public
code, standards, good practice seem like a good start
when I seal I attest I excercised due dilligence and strived to place these interests above my own
it is imo not a 'trademark' or 'statement of authorship'
it is an oath
that's just me

agree to disagree
peace

approve = seal
applicable standards = codes, etc

Charlie , I think you are getting a little old and crotchety here.
You are not going to find one code or rule that defines everything of what a stamp means.
You can design all the plans you want and stick them in a closet. Once you stamp them and turn them over for construction you are attesting they are compliant to the best of your knowledge. Regardless if someone challenges you on it.
Regardless if Plan Check approves it.
Regardless if passing inspection.
I know that in CA in Public works if you design something not code compliant and a contractor is Dinged on it the contractor cannot be held liable and the PE will have to cough up any damages or contact their EO insurance if the local agency forces the issue.
PERIOD!

I can't imagine it is that different in WA.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Charlie I think you need to read the code!
Here it is..... Chew on this.
I am sorry Charlie but you walked into this. I as well as other electrical professionals are just plain tired of PE and EE hiding behind things. It is about time that we here is the news about some design professional being sued or removed from practice for continued Gross Errors on plans.

[h=3]WAC 196-27A-020[/h]
[h=3]Fundamental canons and guidelines for professional conduct and practice.[/h]

Registrants are to safeguard life, health, and property and promote the welfare of the public. To that end, registrants have obligations to the public, their employers and clients, other registrants and the board.
(1) Registrant's obligation to the public.
(a) Registrants are obligated to be honest, fair and timely in their dealings with the public, their clients and other licensed professionals.
(b) Registrants must be able to demonstrate that their final documents and work products conform to accepted standards.
(c) Registrants must inform their clients or employers of the harm that may come to the life, health, property and welfare of the public at such time as their professional judgment is overruled or disregarded. If the harm rises to the level of an imminent threat, the registrant is also obligated to inform the appropriate regulatory agency.
(d) Registrants shall maintain their competency by continuing their professional development throughout their careers and shall provide opportunities for the professional development of those individuals under their supervision.
(e) Registrants shall be objective and truthful in professional documents, reports, public and private statements and testimony; all material facts, and sufficient information to support conclusions or opinions expressed, must be included in said documents, reports, statements and testimony. Registrants shall not knowingly falsify, misrepresent or conceal a material fact in offering or providing services to a client or employer.
(f) Registrants shall offer their services in a truthful, objective, professional manner that effects integrity and fosters public trust in the engineering and land surveying professions.
(g) Registrants should endeavor to extend the public knowledge of engineering and land surveying.
(h) Registrants shall accurately represent their academic credentials, professional qualifications and experience.
(i) Registrants may advertise professional services only in ways that are representative of their qualifications, experience and capabilities.
(j) Registrants shall forbid the use of their name or firm name by any person or firm that is engaging in fraudulent or dishonest business or professional practices.
(2) Registrant's obligation to employer and clients.
(a) Registrants are expected to strive with the skill, diligence and judgment exercised by the prudent practitioner, to achieve the goals and objectives agreed upon with their client or employer. They are also expected to promptly inform the client or employer of progress and changes in conditions that may affect the appropriateness or achievability of some or all of the goals and objectives of the client or employer.
(b) Registrants and their clients should have a clear and documented understanding and acceptance of the work to be performed by the registrant for the client. The registrant should maintain good records throughout the duration of the project to document progress, problems, changes in expectations, design modifications, agreements reached, dates and subject of conversations, dates of transmittals and other pertinent records consistent with prudent professional practice.
(c) Registrants shall seal only documents prepared by them or under their direct supervision as required by RCW 18.43.070.
(d) Registrants shall be competent in the technology and knowledgeable of the codes and regulations applicable to the services they perform.
(e) Registrants must be qualified by education or experience in the technical field of engineering or land surveying applicable to services performed.
(f) Registrants may accept primary contractual responsibility requiring education or experience outside of their own fields of competence, provided, their services are restricted to those parts and aspects of the project in which they are qualified. Other qualified registrants shall perform and stamp the work for other parts and aspects of the project.
(g) Registrants shall act as faithful agents or trustees in professional matters for each employer or client.
(h) Registrants shall advise their employers or clients in a timely manner when, as a result of their studies and their professional judgment, they believe a project will not be successful.
(i) Registrants shall avoid conflicts of interest, or the appearance of a conflict of interest, with their employers or clients. Registrants must promptly inform their employers or clients of any business association, interest, or circumstances that could influence their judgment or the quality of their services or would give the appearance that an existing business association, interest, or circumstances could result in influencing their judgment or the quality of their services.
(j) Registrants shall accept compensation from only one party for services rendered on a specific project, unless the circumstances are fully disclosed and agreed to by the parties of interest.
(3) Registrant's obligation to other registrants.
(a) If registrants issue statements, critiques, evaluations or arguments on engineering or land surveying matters, they shall clearly indicate on whose behalf the statements are made.
(b) Registrants shall negotiate contracts for professional services fairly and on the basis of demonstrated competence and qualifications for the type of services required.
(c) Registrants shall respond to inquiries from other registrants regarding their work in a timely, fair and honest manner as would be expected from a prudent practitioner.
(4) Registrant's obligation to the board.
(a) Registrants shall cooperate with the board by providing, in a timely manner, all records and information requested in writing by the board, or their designee.
(b) Registrants shall respond to, or appear before the board at the time, date and location so stated in a legally served board order.
(c) Registrants shall notify the board of suspected violations of chapter 18.43 or 18.235 RCW or of these rules by providing factual information in writing to convey the knowledge or reason(s) to believe another person or firm may be in violation.
[Statutory Authority: RCW 18.43.035. WSR 02-23-027, § 196-27A-020, filed 11/12/02, effective 12/13/02.]

 

[petersonra]

Charlie I think you need to read the code!
Here it is..... Chew on this.
I am sorry Charlie but you walked into this. I as well as other electrical professionals are just plain tired of PE and EE hiding behind things. It is about time that we here is the news about some design professional being sued or removed from practice for continued Gross Errors on plans.

[h=3]WAC 196-27A-020[/h]
[h=3]Fundamental canons and guidelines for professional conduct and practice.[/h]

Registrants are to safeguard life, health, and property and promote the welfare of the public. To that end, registrants have obligations to the public, their employers and clients, other registrants and the board.
(1) Registrant's obligation to the public.
(a) Registrants are obligated to be honest, fair and timely in their dealings with the public, their clients and other licensed professionals.
(b) Registrants must be able to demonstrate that their final documents and work products conform to accepted standards.
(c) Registrants must inform their clients or employers of the harm that may come to the life, health, property and welfare of the public at such time as their professional judgment is overruled or disregarded. If the harm rises to the level of an imminent threat, the registrant is also obligated to inform the appropriate regulatory agency.
(d) Registrants shall maintain their competency by continuing their professional development throughout their careers and shall provide opportunities for the professional development of those individuals under their supervision.
(e) Registrants shall be objective and truthful in professional documents, reports, public and private statements and testimony; all material facts, and sufficient information to support conclusions or opinions expressed, must be included in said documents, reports, statements and testimony. Registrants shall not knowingly falsify, misrepresent or conceal a material fact in offering or providing services to a client or employer.
(f) Registrants shall offer their services in a truthful, objective, professional manner that effects integrity and fosters public trust in the engineering and land surveying professions.
(g) Registrants should endeavor to extend the public knowledge of engineering and land surveying.
(h) Registrants shall accurately represent their academic credentials, professional qualifications and experience.
(i) Registrants may advertise professional services only in ways that are representative of their qualifications, experience and capabilities.
(j) Registrants shall forbid the use of their name or firm name by any person or firm that is engaging in fraudulent or dishonest business or professional practices.
(2) Registrant's obligation to employer and clients.
(a) Registrants are expected to strive with the skill, diligence and judgment exercised by the prudent practitioner, to achieve the goals and objectives agreed upon with their client or employer. They are also expected to promptly inform the client or employer of progress and changes in conditions that may affect the appropriateness or achievability of some or all of the goals and objectives of the client or employer.
(b) Registrants and their clients should have a clear and documented understanding and acceptance of the work to be performed by the registrant for the client. The registrant should maintain good records throughout the duration of the project to document progress, problems, changes in expectations, design modifications, agreements reached, dates and subject of conversations, dates of transmittals and other pertinent records consistent with prudent professional practice.
(c) Registrants shall seal only documents prepared by them or under their direct supervision as required by RCW 18.43.070.
(d) Registrants shall be competent in the technology and knowledgeable of the codes and regulations applicable to the services they perform.
(e) Registrants must be qualified by education or experience in the technical field of engineering or land surveying applicable to services performed.
(f) Registrants may accept primary contractual responsibility requiring education or experience outside of their own fields of competence, provided, their services are restricted to those parts and aspects of the project in which they are qualified. Other qualified registrants shall perform and stamp the work for other parts and aspects of the project.
(g) Registrants shall act as faithful agents or trustees in professional matters for each employer or client.
(h) Registrants shall advise their employers or clients in a timely manner when, as a result of their studies and their professional judgment, they believe a project will not be successful.
(i) Registrants shall avoid conflicts of interest, or the appearance of a conflict of interest, with their employers or clients. Registrants must promptly inform their employers or clients of any business association, interest, or circumstances that could influence their judgment or the quality of their services or would give the appearance that an existing business association, interest, or circumstances could result in influencing their judgment or the quality of their services.
(j) Registrants shall accept compensation from only one party for services rendered on a specific project, unless the circumstances are fully disclosed and agreed to by the parties of interest.
(3) Registrant's obligation to other registrants.
(a) If registrants issue statements, critiques, evaluations or arguments on engineering or land surveying matters, they shall clearly indicate on whose behalf the statements are made.
(b) Registrants shall negotiate contracts for professional services fairly and on the basis of demonstrated competence and qualifications for the type of services required.
(c) Registrants shall respond to inquiries from other registrants regarding their work in a timely, fair and honest manner as would be expected from a prudent practitioner.
(4) Registrant's obligation to the board.
(a) Registrants shall cooperate with the board by providing, in a timely manner, all records and information requested in writing by the board, or their designee.
(b) Registrants shall respond to, or appear before the board at the time, date and location so stated in a legally served board order.
(c) Registrants shall notify the board of suspected violations of chapter 18.43 or 18.235 RCW or of these rules by providing factual information in writing to convey the knowledge or reason(s) to believe another person or firm may be in violation.
[Statutory Authority: RCW 18.43.035. WSR 02-23-027, § 196-27A-020, filed 11/12/02, effective 12/13/02.]

None of this has anything to do with affixing a seal though.

 

[Sierrasparky]

YES it does! you have not read the whole section and directly related ones. By this statute a PE cannot produce knowingly faulty documents.
It also states how and what must carry a seal.

 

[Sierrasparky]

You don't like that one Chew on this one, geeze



RCW 18.43.070



Certificates and seals.



The director of licensing shall issue a certificate of registration upon payment of a registration fee as provided for in this chapter, to any applicant who, in the opinion of the board, has satisfactorily met all the requirements of this chapter. In case of a registered engineer, the certificate shall authorize the practice of "professional engineering" and specify the branch or branches in which specialized, and in case of a registered land surveyor, the certificate shall authorize the practice of "land surveying."
In case of engineer-in-training, the certificate shall state that the applicant has successfully passed the examination in fundamental engineering subjects required by the board and has been enrolled as an "engineer-in-training." In case of land-surveyor-in-training, the certificate shall state that the applicant has successfully passed the examination in fundamental surveying subjects required by the board and has been enrolled as a "land-surveyor-in-training." All certificates of registration shall show the full name of the registrant, shall have a serial number, and shall be signed by the chair and the secretary of the board and by the director of licensing.
The issuance of a certificate of registration by the director of licensing shall be prima facie evidence that the person named therein is entitled to all the rights and privileges of a registered professional engineer or a registered land surveyor, while the said certificate remains unrevoked and unexpired.
Each registrant hereunder shall upon registration obtain a seal of the design authorized by the board, bearing the registrant's name and the legend "registered professional engineer" or "registered land surveyor." Plans, specifications, plats, and reports prepared by the registrant shall be signed, dated, and stamped with said seal or facsimile thereof. Such signature and stamping shall constitute a certification by the registrant that the same was prepared by or under his or her direct supervision and that to his or her knowledge and belief the same was prepared in accordance with the requirements of the statute. It shall be unlawful for anyone to stamp or seal any document with said seal or facsimile thereof after the certificate of registrant named thereon has expired or been revoked, unless said certificate shall have been renewed or reissued.

[ 2011 c 336 § 482; 1995 c 356 § 4; 1991 c 19 § 5; 1959 c 297 § 4; 1947 c 283 § 10; Rem. Supp. 1947 § 8306-27. Prior: 1935 c 167 §§ 8, 13; RRS § 8306-8, 13.]


When you take all the codes together A PE is obligated to only prepare compliant documents to the best of his knowledge.

 

[petersonra]

YES it does! you have not read the whole section and directly related ones. By this statute a PE cannot produce knowingly faulty documents.
It also states how and what must carry a seal.

I think you are trying too hard.

You cannot mix stuff from the administrative code and the law itself.

 

[Sierrasparky]

You posted too quick.
Look at my previous post.

 

[petersonra]

plans, specifications, plats, and reports prepared by the registrant shall be signed, dated, and stamped with said seal or facsimile thereof. Such signature and stamping shall constitute a certification by the registrant that the same was prepared by or under his or her direct supervision and that to his or her knowledge and belief the same was prepared in accordance with the requirements of the statute

is found in the statute itself.

the other thing you posted was in the administrative code.

the law says the seal means you did what the law requires. it does not say anything about the administrative code.

 

[Sierrasparky]

OMG

Its all out of the same chapter 18.0

 

[petersonra]

OMG

Its all out of the same chapter 18.0

WAC 196-27A-020

is from the administrative code, not chapter 18.