"Permanent provisions for cooking."

[Strathead]

My job had a close call yesterday. It is a 5 story Dormitory. Each floor is identical and has 24 suites with a total of 84 beds per floor. At one end is a common space. In a corner of the common space is an area with a counter that has the designation "kitchen" printed on the plans. The electrical inspector made a comment before I got this deep that the rooms required arc fault (BTW, no mention of tamper resistant receptacles or access to there panels which they don't have). At that time I told him politely, the dorm rooms weren't "dwelling units" and the 2008 NEC which we were bound to, and even the 2011 which is recently adopted don't require arc fault in the rooms.

So skip ahead a couple days. He contacts me with his further research and conclusion. I didn't discuss the next part in depth, because I try not to be stupid. He, with his boss (the AHJ) said that since there was a "kitchen" on the end of the wing, the individual units were "dwelling units". Further research with the Electrical Engineer provided that the areas designated "kitchen" didn't have permanent provision for cooking so they are requiring a plan addendum to remove the designation "kitchen" from the plans and all is good.

As I said, for purposes of this job, a huge change order, a scramble to get the work done (multi-wire branch circuits in MC was the wiring method), and a discussion of other code requirements for dwelling units is not necessary. But it still leaves me with a question.

I don't agree with their interpretation of a dwelling unit. I feel that it is not the intent to designate this set up as a dwelling unit. By their interpretation, I feel that any hotel that had a restaurant could be classified as a dwelling unit.

I am one of those who doesn't care for the whole arc fault scam in the first place so that could color my opinion. I do recognize that the code panel is trying to force more use of them and in 2014 NEC they are required in a dorm, but the inspector's classification of this construction as dwelling units seems to be a larger can of worms.

Opinions?

 

[K8MHZ]

My job had a close call yesterday. It is a 5 story Dormitory. Each floor is identical and has 24 suites with a total of 84 beds per floor. At one end is a common space. In a corner of the common space is an area with a counter that has the designation "kitchen" printed on the plans. The electrical inspector made a comment before I got this deep that the rooms required arc fault (BTW, no mention of tamper resistant receptacles or access to there panels which they don't have). At that time I told him politely, the dorm rooms weren't "dwelling units" and the 2008 NEC which we were bound to, and even the 2011 which is recently adopted don't require arc fault in the rooms.

So skip ahead a couple days. He contacts me with his further research and conclusion. I didn't discuss the next part in depth, because I try not to be stupid. He, with his boss (the AHJ) said that since there was a "kitchen" on the end of the wing, the individual units were "dwelling units". Further research with the Electrical Engineer provided that the areas designated "kitchen" didn't have permanent provision for cooking so they are requiring a plan addendum to remove the designation "kitchen" from the plans and all is good.

As I said, for purposes of this job, a huge change order, a scramble to get the work done (multi-wire branch circuits in MC was the wiring method), and a discussion of other code requirements for dwelling units is not necessary. But it still leaves me with a question.

I don't agree with their interpretation of a dwelling unit. I feel that it is not the intent to designate this set up as a dwelling unit. By their interpretation, I feel that any hotel that had a restaurant could be classified as a dwelling unit.

I am one of those who doesn't care for the whole arc fault scam in the first place so that could color my opinion. I do recognize that the code panel is trying to force more use of them and in 2014 NEC they are required in a dorm, but the inspector's classification of this construction as dwelling units seems to be a larger can of worms.

Opinions?

The definition the NEC gives for dwelling units does not align with the inspector's. Perhaps a local code re-defines dwelling units to include dorms.

 

[kwired]

It goes beyond AFCI's as well. Had this been deemed to be dwelling units you also would have been required to provide two SABC's for each kitchen, a 20 amp circuit to each bathroom (not a bad idea but not required if not a dwelling unit), and tamper resistant receptacles will be required

If you were under 2014 NEC AFCI protection would have been needed anyway as dormitories have been added in 210.12, but you still do not need to meet some of the other dwelling unit requirements if you don't have a dwelling unit.

 

[mwm1752]

From your comments, the only reason the initially called it a kitchen was because of the designation on the plans not the definition by code. The plans examiners should have caught this in review. From thier point of view, If they are inspecting a kitchen per the plans and do not require the NEC code that applies, then they might have a difficult time defending the negligence of inspection of project documents. Sounds like they took the appropriate actions as to redefine the area so that the correct code articles could be applicable. Certainly nothing to take as a personal issue. Some consider, a built in microwave permanent cooking provisions -- hopefully it is not your case & has not been overlooked.

 

[kwired]

From your comments, the only reason the initially called it a kitchen was because of the designation on the plans not the definition by code. The plans examiners should have caught this in review. From thier point of view, If they are inspecting a kitchen per the plans and do not require the NEC code that applies, then they might have a difficult time defending the negligence of inspection of project documents. Sounds like they took the appropriate actions as to redefine the area so that the correct code articles could be applicable. Certainly nothing to take as a personal issue. Some consider, a built in microwave permanent cooking provisions -- hopefully it is not your case & has not been overlooked.

Which is fine for determining what codes apply to said kitchen - or not a kitchen.

Still has little to do with the fact the dormitory rooms are not dwelling units as they do not contain a permanent provision for cooking.

As he said if they want to call these dormitory's "dwelling units" based on the fact that there is a common kitchen area for multiple units - then every hotel with a restaurant or even just a complimentary breakfast prep area is also filled with "dwelling units". These "inspectors" either are very new at their job, have an agenda, or are just ignorant and unwilling to learn.

 

[mwm1752]

Which is fine for determining what codes apply to said kitchen - or not a kitchen.

Still has little to do with the fact the dormitory rooms are not dwelling units as they do not contain a permanent provision for cooking.

As he said if they want to call these dormitory's "dwelling units" based on the fact that there is a common kitchen area for multiple units - then every hotel with a restaurant or even just a complimentary breakfast prep area is also filled with "dwelling units". These "inspectors" either are very new at their job, have an agenda, or are just ignorant and unwilling to learn.

Guest units with permanent cooking provisions are required to meet the rules for dwelling units NEC 2008. Calling someone ignorant or unwilling is very harsh coming from a person not looking at all angles to understand intent of meaning. The fact stands that they did find an applicable resolve to the issue so the must be a willingness to learn somewhere. I took the common space was inside the unit with four bedrooms for students, my bad.The OP stated thier interpretation was dwelling but I have not idea of the exact conversation between them. Many times the OP's version is lacking on specifics. If the permanent cooking facilities for every hotel with a restaurant or even just a complimentary breakfast prep area is within the individual units then they do follow the same AFCI restricions as a dwelling unit NEC 2008. No need to be so angry when discussing code. I can only hope to attain your upper status one day of all knowing.

 

[Strathead]

The definition the NEC gives for dwelling units does not align with the inspector's. Perhaps a local code re-defines dwelling units to include dorms.

I tried to explain in my post that they would have tried to define it as a dwelling unit if the "kitchen" are in the common room had permanent provisions for cooking or a stove. Not just because it was a dormitory and as I did state, they did not define it that way because there was not a stove.

 

[Strathead]

The definition the NEC gives for dwelling units does not align with the inspector's. Perhaps a local code re-defines dwelling units to include dorms.

I tried to explain in my post that they would have tried to define it as a dwelling unit if the "kitchen" are in the common room had permanent provisions for cooking or a stove. Not just because it was a dormitory and as I did state, they did not define it that way because there was not a stove.

 

[Strathead]

It goes beyond AFCI's as well. Had this been deemed to be dwelling units you also would have been required to provide two SABC's for each kitchen, a 20 amp circuit to each bathroom (not a bad idea but not required if not a dwelling unit), and tamper resistant receptacles will be required

If you were under 2014 NEC AFCI protection would have been needed anyway as dormitories have been added in 210.12, but you still do not need to meet some of the other dwelling unit requirements if you don't have a dwelling unit.

That is part of my point, but I am mainly trying to determine if anyone else has an agreement or a valid way to argue that the common provisions for cooking are not intended to make it a dwelling unit. For example, you can say it need to be in the same room or even floor, because a house has kitchen on one floor separate from the bedrooms on another floor.

 

[gadfly56]

Guest units with permanent cooking provisions are required to meet the rules for dwelling units NEC 2008. Calling someone ignorant or unwilling is very harsh coming from a person not looking at all angles to understand intent of meaning. The fact stands that they did find an applicable resolve to the issue so the must be a willingness to learn somewhere. I took the common space was inside the unit with four bedrooms for students, my bad.The OP stated thier interpretation was dwelling but I have not idea of the exact conversation between them. Many times the OP's version is lacking on specifics. If the permanent cooking facilities for every hotel with a restaurant or even just a complimentary breakfast prep area is within the individual units then they do follow the same AFCI restricions as a dwelling unit NEC 2008. No need to be so angry when discussing code. I can only hope to attain your upper status one day of all knowing.

I don't think you understand the physical setup. There in one common area PER FLOOR, not per suite. This is almost exactly like a hotel with a breakfast prep area for cooking up waffles and such just as the OP suggested.

 

[Strathead]

Guest units with permanent cooking provisions are required to meet the rules for dwelling units NEC 2008. Calling someone ignorant or unwilling is very harsh coming from a person not looking at all angles to understand intent of meaning. The fact stands that they did find an applicable resolve to the issue so the must be a willingness to learn somewhere. I took the common space was inside the unit with four bedrooms for students, my bad.The OP stated thier interpretation was dwelling but I have not idea of the exact conversation between them. Many times the OP's version is lacking on specifics. If the permanent cooking facilities for every hotel with a restaurant or even just a complimentary breakfast prep area is within the individual units then they do follow the same AFCI restricions as a dwelling unit NEC 2008. No need to be so angry when discussing code. I can only hope to attain your upper status one day of all knowing.

but in this case the OP's (mine) specifics were in the original post. The didn't "resolve" the issue I am questioning and kwired's answer is by far the closest to what I am asking. So your statement that they had a willingness to learn is not accurate in my opinion. They just found a way to wiggle out of their initial position in this case. That is mostly whether others buy in to the argument that a common kitchen makes the units dwelling units. I think it was clear in my post that there was a kitchen in the common room per floor. I am looking for a healthy discussion on this issue because I believe as kwired does, but I can see another side sort of like I can see another side than mine to politics, I just can't understand how anyone could think that way.

 

[mwm1752]

I don't think you understand the physical setup. There in one common area PER FLOOR, not per suite. This is almost exactly like a hotel with a breakfast prep area for cooking up waffles and such just as the OP suggested.

True that -- prints & documents so much easier
Strat - Just not my way to start name calling individuals I know nothing about --

 

[Sierrasparky]

I think this will help: Check your local code. From our Calif Elec code. it is the same words as 2008 NEC as that is the latest I use.

Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and
independent living facilities for one or more persons,
including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking,
and sanitation.


The KEY work is Independent which is not the case here.

 

[Strathead]

I think this will help: Check your local code. From our Calif Elec code. it is the same words as 2008 NEC as that is the latest I use.

Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and
independent living facilities for one or more persons,
including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking,
and sanitation.


The KEY work is Independent which is not the case here.

Yes, that completely eluded me in my discussion with the inspector yesterday.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Yes, that completely eluded me in my discussion with the inspector yesterday.

I hope this was not too late for you.


as for my earlier post. The latest NEC I have on the shelf is the 2008 NEC as we don't use NEC books anymore. We use the CA title 24 part 3 ( CEC 2013) Which I have on PDF.

 

[jwelectric]

As a plan reviewer I can honestly say that it is impossible to get everything on a plan when one only has a few minutes per plan. In a small jurisdiction with several people then more time can be spent doing plans.

Plan review or not the electrical contractor is still bound to abide by the codes. The way I am seeing this thread we have several lockable bedrooms that share the same kitchen area. The fact that the rooms are lockable plays no role in determining the definition of a dwelling.

I ask one simple question, does each person have access to permanent previsions to sleeping, sanitation, and cooking? If the answer to this question is yes then I would enforce 210.18. If the area designated as kitchen on the print did not have an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking then there is nothing to enforce.

I have spent many a night in hotels that has restaurants but not even one of them would let me cook what I wanted when I wanted it. A hotel that has a complimentary breakfast prep area in most cases will not have permanent previsions for cooking. They will have cord and plug appliances that are removed for cleaning after use. At any rate either the restaurant or breakfast area is not accessible to the individuals staying in the hotel at all times therefore it does not fit the definition of a dwelling.

 

[gadfly56]

As a plan reviewer I can honestly say that it is impossible to get everything on a plan when one only has a few minutes per plan. In a small jurisdiction with several people then more time can be spent doing plans.

Plan review or not the electrical contractor is still bound to abide by the codes. The way I am seeing this thread we have several lockable bedrooms that share the same kitchen area. The fact that the rooms are lockable plays no role in determining the definition of a dwelling.

I ask one simple question, does each person have access to permanent previsions to sleeping, sanitation, and cooking? If the answer to this question is yes then I would enforce 210.18. If the area designated as kitchen on the print did not have an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking then there is nothing to enforce.

I have spent many a night in hotels that has restaurants but not even one of them would let me cook what I wanted when I wanted it. A hotel that has a complimentary breakfast prep area in most cases will not have permanent previsions for cooking. They will have cord and plug appliances that are removed for cleaning after use. At any rate either the restaurant or breakfast area is not accessible to the individuals staying in the hotel at all times therefore it does not fit the definition of a dwelling.

No. You have several bedrooms, who's doors may be lockable, that open into a common suite area, said suite area has a lockable door opening to a public hallway, at the end of which is the "kitchen" area.

 

[sandsnow]

I don't agree with AHJs interpretation. Without the food prep area on each floor, it's an easy call. It's a guest room.

I ask myself: What does the addition of the food prep area on each floor change in the guest room? Nothing.

The same type food prep area could be on the first floor of a motel. I wouldn't call for every guest room to meet rules for dwelling units.

In either the case of the dorms or my motel example, you are not preparing food in the room. You are just eating it in there.

If 210.18 stated:
.....permanent provisions for cooking in "each guest room or guest suite"....

Then that would make it more clear. That is the intent in my opinion. With the food prep in the room, the the guest room or dorm mimicks a dwelling unit and is treated the same.

The way 210.18 is written now, I guess I can sort of see how the AHJ got there.

I just remembered OP said 2008. I'm looking at 2011, so I hope all the above is applicable. I don't see any gray text in the 2011.

 

[Sierrasparky]

As a plan reviewer I can honestly say that it is impossible to get everything on a plan when one only has a few minutes per plan. In a small jurisdiction with several people then more time can be spent doing plans.

Plan review or not the electrical contractor is still bound to abide by the codes. The way I am seeing this thread we have several lockable bedrooms that share the same kitchen area. The fact that the rooms are lockable plays no role in determining the definition of a dwelling.

I ask one simple question, does each person have access to permanent previsions to sleeping, sanitation, and cooking? If the answer to this question is yes then I would enforce 210.18. If the area designated as kitchen on the print did not have an area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking then there is nothing to enforce.

I have spent many a night in hotels that has restaurants but not even one of them would let me cook what I wanted when I wanted it. A hotel that has a complimentary breakfast prep area in most cases will not have permanent previsions for cooking. They will have cord and plug appliances that are removed for cleaning after use. At any rate either the restaurant or breakfast area is not accessible to the individuals staying in the hotel at all times therefore it does not fit the definition of a dwelling.

I have to disagree with you.
These dwelling units are not guest suites by the current definition. IF the CMP wanted to include guest suites then they would have included those words.

A dorm is a style of temporary housing. Each dorm unit is an individual unit and no cooking. The kitchen area is locked off and is not in control of any one dorm inhabitant like their individual dorm room. The do not call it a dorm suite.

The last time you stayed in a hotel suite did a neighboring suite guest come by to cook some smelly fish or stir fry. Don't think so.

 

[kwired]

No. You have several bedrooms, who's doors may be lockable, that open into a common suite area, said suite area has a lockable door opening to a public hallway, at the end of which is the "kitchen" area.

Been on a few college visits, recently as my youngest will likely be attending college next year, have older son that is done with college, between the two most college dormitories are just about exactly what you described and exactly what I had envisioned when reading the OP. The individual rooms are not dwelling units, the entire floor is not a dwelling unit. Many times the whole floor shares a common bathroom as well, but the bathroom and the "kitchen" are in a common area that is open to the public, at least during hours when main entrance is open to public, for security reasons you may need a key/card/etc to gain access to main entrance if you are authorized to enter during off hours, but those common areas are available to all that get in the main entrance.