"Permanent provisions for cooking."

[Strathead]

No. You have several bedrooms, who's doors may be lockable, that open into a common suite area, said suite area has a lockable door opening to a public hallway, at the end of which is the "kitchen" area.

Yes that is what you have and the code says as pointed out the code uses the word independent, so I disagree with JW. I do sympathize and don't hold it against a plan reviewer for not catching everything.

 

[jwelectric]

No. You have several bedrooms, who's doors may be lockable, that open into a common suite area, said suite area has a lockable door opening to a public hallway, at the end of which is the "kitchen" area.

Once again I ask the question, does each resident have access to living, sleeping, sanitation, and cooking? If so then I would call it a dwelling unit as defined by Article 100 of the NEC.

I don?t see where the number of lockable doors or the location of the kitchen comes into play.

A boarding house with several bedrooms with a common kitchen that every resident has 24/7 access to is a dwelling unit, what makes this dorm any different?

Using the logic of some in this thread I suppose that a single family dwelling where one person owns the building but is leasing out the bedrooms would not be a dwelling unit because each resident will want to lock their doors and do not have cooking in each bedroom. The kitchen and bathroom is a common area.

I have seen some dorms that have 6 to 8 lockable bedrooms with a common ?study area? and a kitchen. Unlock a door to enter the study area and then unlock another door to enter the two person bedroom. Is this a dwelling unit? By definition, yes.

The way I see it, if the definition in Article 100 is met then it is a dwelling unit no matter how many bedrooms or the location of the kitchen area.

 

[Strathead]

I hope this was not too late for you.


as for my earlier post. The latest NEC I have on the shelf is the 2008 NEC as we don't use NEC books anymore. We use the CA title 24 part 3 ( CEC 2013) Which I have on PDF.

No, it wasn't too late. As I stated, this is now an intellectual discussion as the inspector used the out that there were no provisions for cooking in the common area.

 

[Strathead]

Once again I ask the question, does each resident have access to living, sleeping, sanitation, and cooking? If so then I would call it a dwelling unit as defined by Article 100 of the NEC.

I don?t see where the number of lockable doors or the location of the kitchen comes into play.

A boarding house with several bedrooms with a common kitchen that every resident has 24/7 access to is a dwelling unit, what makes this dorm any different?

Using the logic of some in this thread I suppose that a single family dwelling where one person owns the building but is leasing out the bedrooms would not be a dwelling unit because each resident will want to lock their doors and do not have cooking in each bedroom. The kitchen and bathroom is a common area.

I have seen some dorms that have 6 to 8 lockable bedrooms with a common ?study area? and a kitchen. Unlock a door to enter the study area and then unlock another door to enter the two person bedroom. Is this a dwelling unit? By definition, yes.

The way I see it, if the definition in Article 100 is met then it is a dwelling unit no matter how many bedrooms or the location of the kitchen area.

Only because SierraSparky pointed this out can I be so "smart" but you keep ignoring or not addressing the use of the term "independent living facilities" Also, when you consider that the 2014 code now included language to require arc fault breakers in dormitories that adds fuel to our side of the position. One difference I can give you in this case from your boarding house scenario is that each suite contain one to two bedrooms, and one to two bathrooms, and is encased in a 1 hour rated fire wall. It is pretty clear to me that the code doesn't intend to classify this as a dwelling unit. This designation has far more implication than just arc fault breakers.

If you, like my buddy, wants to argue that arc fault is beneficial and should be in all bedrooms, and we are just trying to use the literal code to skip out on safety, then I could accept that on its face. I disagree because, I think arc fault breakers are a cost that far outweighs their benefit. But that is a different discussion.

 

[jwelectric]

I think this will help: Check your local code. From our Calif Elec code. it is the same words as 2008 NEC as that is the latest I use.

Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and
independent living facilities for one or more persons,
including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking,
and sanitation.


The KEY work is Independent which is not the case here.

a (1) : not subject to control by others : (2) : not affiliated with a larger controlling unit

If each resident has access to all the items outlined in Article 100 for a dwelling unit, or in other words they can access the kitchen area at will, there is no lockout time for the kitchen why wouldn?t it be a dwelling unit?

Are you saying that my home is not a dwelling unit because each bedroom doesn?t have independent cooking units?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I am going to play devil's advocate here.

The definition for Dwelling Unit paints with a fairly broad brush.

Take the single unit, and think of a large house that may have, 6 or 8 bedrooms. The bedrooms are located in the basement, 1st floor and 2nd floor. The kitchen on the first floor.

Now take this dorm with the kitchen located on each floor which is for use by all the bedrooms on that floor. There are most likely bathrooms on that floor as well. I wonder if there is a "common" room as well.
(this is the setup that I lived in at Syracuse - a very comfortable space where we cooked like mad, we had to take turns all the time, as the kitchen was super busy) - not too much different than a house really.

All of a sudden it is not too far fetched this scenario could be considered a Dwelling unit by definition. Building officials are under a lot of pressure. Dorms in particular create a lot of stress in the design process due to all the issues we have been seeing and litigation created due to that.

Just saying....

 

[jwelectric]

Only because SierraSparky pointed this out can I be so "smart" but you keep ignoring or not addressing the use of the term "independent living facilities" Also, when you consider that the 2014 code now included language to require arc fault breakers in dormitories that adds fuel to our side of the position. One difference I can give you in this case from your boarding house scenario is that each suite contain one to two bedrooms, and one to two bathrooms, and is encased in a 1 hour rated fire wall. It is pretty clear to me that the code doesn't intend to classify this as a dwelling unit. This designation has far more implication than just arc fault breakers.

If you, like my buddy, wants to argue that arc fault is beneficial and should be in all bedrooms, and we are just trying to use the literal code to skip out on safety, then I could accept that on its face. I disagree because, I think arc fault breakers are a cost that far outweighs their benefit. But that is a different discussion.

This discussion is about the definition of a dwelling unit not about arc-fault. As you say that is a different discussion.

I can?t see where the number of lockable doors or the installation of a fire wall is mentioned in the definition of dwelling unit. All I see in the definition is the criteria for, a single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

This question goes unanswered, ?Once again I ask the question, does each resident have access to living, sleeping, sanitation, and cooking??
If this question is answered with a yes then it is a dwelling unit. If this question is answered with a no then it is not a dwelling unit.

 

[Strathead]

This discussion is about the definition of a dwelling unit not about arc-fault. As you say that is a different discussion.

I can?t see where the number of lockable doors or the installation of a fire wall is mentioned in the definition of dwelling unit. All I see in the definition is the criteria for, a single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

This question goes unanswered, ?Once again I ask the question, does each resident have access to living, sleeping, sanitation, and cooking??
If this question is answered with a yes then it is a dwelling unit. If this question is answered with a no then it is not a dwelling unit.

You can stretch all you want and eventually orange will be blue. By your definition, a barracks with a concrete poured barbecue pit attached to the building, a dwelling unit also. But since you defined independent as "not subject to control by others", then my family home is definitely not a residence because our kitchen was definitely subject to control by my Mother and you didn't access it for cooking without direct permission.

The fact is that intent has to be taken in to consideration to some extent. A dormitory is a transient facility far more similar to a hotel than an apartment. Note that they use the word "unit" not building in the definition. You can be sure that wasn't an accident as building is a far easier concept. A townhouse with four units is not a single dwelling unit and each one is independently(there is that word again) subject to all the codes required for dwelling units.

 

[jwelectric]

You can stretch all you want and eventually orange will be blue.

Not trying to stretch anything only getting involved in this discussion and asking one simple question, does each resident in this discussion have access to sleeping, sanitation, and cooking. It seems to me to be a simple question but it goes unanswered.

Note that they use the word "unit" not building in the definition. You can be sure that wasn't an accident as building is a far easier concept. A townhouse with four units is not a single dwelling unit and each one is independently(there is that word again) subject to all the codes required for dwelling units.

In an earlier post you mentioned a 1 hour fire rating on the walls. This does not make for a separate structure as defined by the building codes or as with a townhouse or apartment being part of a multifamily dwelling as defined in Article 100.

What will determine if this floor you are describing is a dwelling is by the definition of dwelling unit. Is this entire floor designed to be parts of a dwelling unit for the residents. This can be answered by asking if these residents have a unit for sleeping, sanitation, and cooking.

To carry your Bar-B-Que pit a little future, it is my belief that prisons should be dwelling units also. Ever hear of cooking coffee in a milk carton using toilet paper for the burner. There is a sink in that cell so I believe that there should also be two small appliance circuits in there.

We will find that we can come to some sort of conclusion if we limit this to just this part;

My job had a close call yesterday. It is a 5 story Dormitory. Each floor is identical and has 24 suites with a total of 84 beds per floor. At one end is a common space. In a corner of the common space is an area with a counter that has the designation "kitchen" printed on the plans. The electrical inspector made a comment before I got this deep that the rooms required arc fault (BTW, no mention of tamper resistant receptacles or access to there panels which they don't have). At that time I told him politely, the dorm rooms weren't "dwelling units" and the 2008 NEC which we were bound to, and even the 2011 which is recently adopted don't require arc fault in the rooms.

Do the residents on this floor have access to those things described in the definition of a dwelling unit? :?

 

[mwm1752]

I will start by aknowledgement of there is no kitchen by definition as the OP states -- this discussion has transformed into another form.
The meaning of Independant comes up in this discussion. I would conclude independant refers to not needing other places to go in order to function, not independant individuals.
Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation. How about a fraternity home.
A single unit -fraternity house
providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, - everyone has access to sleeping , cooking, & bathing facilities,
Dwelling, Multifamily. A building that contains three or more dwelling units. - Each floor providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

Strat, I don't really care for the excessive AFCI requirements but I can only submit code changes as I hope someone with your dismay has also done. Is there anyway now that you could possibly view how the code official was looking at the situation? I can certainly see both sides, as with most codes not everything is cut & dry. Really the decision should be based on life/safety. So it appears you have no life safety issues with college students using there rooms as in the same way they do at home. These students are way less transient them a motel guest room as they bring personal items to live with them and also spend more time in thier rooms than at home. Right or wrong the AHJ has a responsibility of getting it correct without concern for your contract & cost.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Too all who claim that this dorm is a dwelling unit and should be required to have AFCI.

Place the blame on the CMP and the final Code wording. The problem is compromise. Those for the AFCI want it installed everywhere and in every building that people sleep in.

The problem is the carve out compromise. The CMP is fully aware that the language is a carve out and not all inclusive. Then you have these enforcement zealots that like to bust your chops in the name of safety.

If the words of such a code don't reflect the action then to me it is a done deal. We have no right to add in what the CMP compromised in the first place. They are the ones that are aware of why the compromise was made. After the printing of the code is none of our concern. If we don't like it then we lobby for a new compromise.

DONE!

 

[mwm1752]

And I thought this was a discussion on whether or not the AHJ could or could or could not find reasoning the enforcement of the NEC as stated.
90.1 Purpose
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.
Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI). A device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and by functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected.

An Inspector that does not practice 90.1 in not a responsible person. Those who mock may reconsider the profession & start flippin burgers for a living.

 

[sandsnow]

210.60 Guest Rooms, Guest Suites, Dormitories, and Similar Occupancies.
(A)General. Guest rooms or guest suites in hotels, motels, sleeping rooms in dormitories, and similar occupancies shall have receptacle outlets installed in accordance with 210.52(A) and(D). Guest rooms or guest suites provided with permanent provisions for cooking shall have receptacle outlets installed in accordance with all of the applicable rules in 210.52.

I get two things from the above.
The Code intends dormitories as different from guest rooms or suites.
The Code did not envision dormitories having permanent provisions for cooking.

If dormitories were to be lumped together with guest rooms and suites, then the last sentence would have included dormitories.

So when you go back to 210.18, which has the condition to kick in AFCIs, that section would not apply.

As some has mentioned, the 2014 now requires AFCIs in dormitories, so going forward it will be moot.

The requirement in the 2014 may been a factor in the AHJ decision. Based on the wording of the Code in effect at the time, I don't think it's a valid interpretation.

Assuming AFCIs are the miracle of modern technology people claim, I think AFCIs should be in dormitories.

 

[kwired]

Once again I ask the question, does each resident have access to living, sleeping, sanitation, and cooking? If so then I would call it a dwelling unit as defined by Article 100 of the NEC.

I don?t see where the number of lockable doors or the location of the kitchen comes into play.

A boarding house with several bedrooms with a common kitchen that every resident has 24/7 access to is a dwelling unit, what makes this dorm any different?

Using the logic of some in this thread I suppose that a single family dwelling where one person owns the building but is leasing out the bedrooms would not be a dwelling unit because each resident will want to lock their doors and do not have cooking in each bedroom. The kitchen and bathroom is a common area.

I have seen some dorms that have 6 to 8 lockable bedrooms with a common ?study area? and a kitchen. Unlock a door to enter the study area and then unlock another door to enter the two person bedroom. Is this a dwelling unit? By definition, yes.

The way I see it, if the definition in Article 100 is met then it is a dwelling unit no matter how many bedrooms or the location of the kitchen area.

So if we are calling the dormitory with a common kitchen area on each floor a dwelling unit - then the entire structure is a dwelling unit. We need minimum of 2 SABC's at each of those kitchens, we need to put in receptacles per 210.52, lighting outlets and lighting controls per 210.70(A),and probably a few other things I may have forgot at the moment, that are not typical in this kind of building I don't recall seeing complete compliance with 210.52 and 210.70(A) in this kind of building outside the "bedrooms" or whatever we may call them in the facilities I have been in, I would also guess other codes do not necessarily consider this a dwelling unit either.

Next question is this single family, two family, multifamily dwelling?

I am going to play devil's advocate here.

The definition for Dwelling Unit paints with a fairly broad brush.

Take the single unit, and think of a large house that may have, 6 or 8 bedrooms. The bedrooms are located in the basement, 1st floor and 2nd floor. The kitchen on the first floor.

Now take this dorm with the kitchen located on each floor which is for use by all the bedrooms on that floor. There are most likely bathrooms on that floor as well. I wonder if there is a "common" room as well.
(this is the setup that I lived in at Syracuse - a very comfortable space where we cooked like mad, we had to take turns all the time, as the kitchen was super busy) - not too much different than a house really.

All of a sudden it is not too far fetched this scenario could be considered a Dwelling unit by definition. Building officials are under a lot of pressure. Dorms in particular create a lot of stress in the design process due to all the issues we have been seeing and litigation created due to that.

Just saying....

I agree the NEC is not really clear what this particular kind of use of a building should be classified as. It has some dwelling unit characteristics, it has some guest room/suite characteristics, it also may have areas adjacent that are not even close to being a guest room or dwelling. Many other building codes may even require fire walls/doors/etc. between such areas as a way of separating them from one another. Many common areas especially corridors, stairways, elevators, lobbies are all separated the same way they are in any other occupancy and are also considered a protected egress route, and not a part of any suite or other subdivision of the building.

 

[roger]

Well, I must say that in my home all the bedrooms have lockable doors and excepting the master bedroom, there are no bathrooms that can be accessed without leaving the bedroom, you would also have to leave the bedrooms to go to the kitchen and my house is called a dwelling unit.

As bad as I hate it, I can see the rational of calling dorm rooms dwelling units.

Whether the intent is that they should be treated as dwelling units, I don't think so but, I don't see a real strong point as an argument to say they aren't.


Roger

 

[sandsnow]

An Inspector that does not practice 90.1 in not a responsible person. Those who mock may reconsider the profession & start flippin burgers for a living.

Please elaborate on the your last sentence. As an inspector, I would like to be clear on your meaning.

 

[kwired]

Well, I must say that in my home all the bedrooms have lockable doors and excepting the master bedroom, there are no bathrooms that can be accessed without leaving the bedroom, you would also have to leave the bedrooms to go to the kitchen and my house is called a dwelling unit.

As bad as I hate it, I can see the rational of calling dorm rooms dwelling units.

Whether the intent is that they should be treated as dwelling units, I don't think so but, I don't see a real strong point as an argument to say they aren't.


Roger

If they want to call them that I don't have a problem with it, but if this common kitchen on a floor is part of what qualifies it as a dwelling unit then IMO it needs more then just AFCI protection included - it needs 210.52 compliance, 210.70(A) compliance, and possibly some other sections related to dwellings need applied for the entire area between each "bedroom" and this "kitchen". Each occupant also needs access to their overcurrent protection devices including for the kitchen, bath and other common areas that are also part of the "dwelling unit"- that may also be something not so common in such buildings but there typically is site maintenance people, maybe not in the building but on the campus.

I am more in favor of treating these more like guest rooms or suites then as dwelling units, this still puts some of the dwelling unit rules in the "sleeping rooms" but keeps the common areas separate to some degree. Now if you have a situation where there are separate cooking and sanitation provisions in individual "suites" then I agree each "suite" is a individual dwelling unit, but the way most college dormitories are designed the common bathroom and the common kitchen on a floor is more of a public area then a private suite area.

 

[mwm1752]

Please elaborate on the your last sentence. As an inspector, I would like to be clear on your meaning.

To anyone in the electrical trade that does not believe life safety is a priority in installation & inspections should find an occupation in which does not incorporate such personal responsibility. I meant no offense to those who flip burgers but they do not have as many codes & restrictions to follow.

 

[augie47]

I've seen a lot of sunrises and sat thru a lot of meetings where this and a similar topic, does a microwave constitute permanent cooking, have taken up eons of time by contractors, inspectors and even CMP members. As noted in this thread, there are often good points made on both sides of the argument and such discussions occasionally end in Code changes such as the 2014 dormitory rule.
Until such details are specifically spelled out in the Code such discussions will continue. I think it is to the inspectors credit that he (a) had overall safety in mind and (b) was willing to have the decision reviewed. In the end, IMO the Code addresses such issues by use of 90.4 allowing the local jurisdiction to solve such problems. Here we can only give opinions.

 

[roger]

I am more in favor of treating these more like guest rooms or suites then as dwelling units,

They already are, see 210.60, but that doesn't really change this discussion.

Roger