photos from my first plastic & wirenut job!

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don_resqcapt19 said:
e57,

Yes, but there will be no exposed copper. The solder will coat the copper completely even when it has been tightly twisted.
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And what is the danger of 'exposed' copper, especially if it's covered properly with tape?
 
Crimped sleeves?

Crimped sleeves?

We do primarily service, retrofit and upgrade work in an area where most occupancies are 50 to 100 years old. we have found every method of connection from S&T (usually w/K&T), 3 piece crimp sleeve (lead/zinc alloy?)/rubber insulator/retainer ring, "Buchanans" (Cu crimp sleeve) w/ tape, Wagos, wirenuts. As this thread was being discussed in our shop, one of the guys asked why (or if) a S&T joint would be preferable to a twisted, crimped (Cu sleeve) and taped one. Any thoughts?
 
lbwireman said:
...why (or if) a S&T joint would be preferable to a twisted, crimped (Cu sleeve) and taped one...
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For an in-line splice, maybe less noise from an "antenna" perspective, or that it is less bulky? Can't see a good reason for a normal joint.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
e57,

Yes, but there will be no exposed copper. The solder will coat the copper completely even when it has been tightly twisted.
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But if the joint had an undesirable level of resistance prior to solder - I doubt the solder will improve it by much.... But if it had zero resistance prior to solder the solder will not effect it detrimentally IMO. Meaning... If you have a good mechanical copper to copper connection before the solder - you'll still have the same after the solder.
 
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480sparky,
And what is the danger of 'exposed' copper, especially if it's covered properly with tape?
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I wasn't really clear. What I am trying to say that with a soldered joint there is no copper to copper connection. There is when you twist the wired together before you solder them, but there isn't after. With a wirenut there is copper to copper after the joint is complete. The small amount of tin and lead between the copper wires is what makes the resistance a very small amount higher for the soldered connection.
 
e57 said:
.... But if it had zero resistance prior to solder the solder will not effect it detrimentally IMO
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I didn't say it was a problem...just that it had a slightly higher resistance. Much too little of a change to be measured with any field instrument.
 
don, it seems like it would be hard for the solder to encapsulate the copper and prevent direct contact between the two conductors. in a tightly twisted joint, it would basically have to squeeze itself between the conductors. is this possible? when taking voltage measurements, i rarely see the slightest drop from the service to the last device on any particular branch (measuring up to tenths of a volt). there is a high amount of surface contact area in a joint, whether it be soldered or crimped. i'm not at all saying you're wrong, i'm just curious as to whether one could get a measurable difference that has any effect on the circuit; and keep in mind we're only talking about small conductors here: #14 & #12.


edit ---> sorry i didn't read your last post
Much too little of a change to be measured with any field instrument.
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My understanding is that the flux used on the wire before twisting is displaced by the solder and the wire is completely coated with solder in a correctly made joint.
 
HighWirey said:
Anyone who critizes the quality of those pictured solder connections does not his xxx from apple butter.

No contest here that a solder connection is a better, but a more time consuming connection than a wirenut.

I too, did not know that a soldered connection was legal for residential wiring.

And I have heard the term 'solder pot' used. How in the world would a person use a solder pot to complete any joints in residential?

Best Wishes Everyone
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I've had my xxx confused with a myriad of different things during my life, but never with apple butter. I don't know what the heck that is. But I do know how to solder.And I do know what a good solder joint looks like. The Navy sent me to NASA for a week to learn the science and the art of soldering. They were Very particular there.Back to the apple butter, is that any thing like a hole in the ground?:D
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
My understanding is that the flux used on the wire before twisting is displaced by the solder and the wire is completely coated with solder in a correctly made joint.
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With the K&T splices I find myself doing all too often - I usually scrape the conductor bare - then splice - then flux - then solder. Just copper to copper as the joint - the flux will flush out anything laying around the splice and allow the solder to flow, but not get between the two (or more) pieces of copper IMO. The copper is usually wrenched tight against each other. I think if you got a cross-section it wouldn't have any solder in between - might need a microscope to check though....
 
iaov said:
I don't know what the heck that is. But I do know how to solder.And I do know what a good solder joint looks like. The Navy sent me to NASA for a week to learn the science and the art of soldering. They were Very particular there.
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You really can't compare military spec. work ( soldering ) and their strict tolerances to what would be required for residential work.

Most of the equipment that we use in civilian life ( commercial & industrial ) will not meet military specs. Military equipment must be designed for use in time of war where any sort of break down would be dangerous.

Example" Good resistor for commercial use has a tolerance of plus or minus 5% and a military grade resistor had a tolerance of plus or minus 1%.
People question why military equipment is so expensive but close tolerance work cost. :)
 
growler said:
You really can't compare military spec. work ( soldering ) and their strict tolerances to what would be required for residential work.
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Or electronics soldering to soldering of distribution conductors - two different animals IMO.
 
growler said:
You really can't compare military spec. work ( soldering ) and their strict tolerances to what would be required for residential work.

Most of the equipment that we use in civilian life ( commercial & industrial ) will not meet military specs. Military equipment must be designed for use in time of war where any sort of break down would be dangerous.

Example" Good resistor for commercial use has a tolerance of plus or minus 5% and a military grade resistor had a tolerance of plus or minus 1%.
People question why military equipment is so expensive but close tolerance work cost. :)
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You are absolutly right growler. And the solder joint that was pictured was fine. I'm sure it would last forever. But IMHO a thing of beauty it was not.There are no "good old days". Just old days and everything we have available to us, wether cars, motor cycles, or plastic gang boxes are better today. I'm damn glad I can wire nut my connections rather than having to solder them!:D
 
e57 said:
Or electronics soldering to soldering of distribution conductors - two different animals IMO.
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Exactly, different flux material, different solder, and the joints are not inspected with a microscope, or put in a test chamber, then run thru a series of quality tests.
 
I WILL NOT say you are wrong on soldered connections, I will say I think you are wrong on SOME angles. You are going to have to get alot deeper than this discussion such as alloys and different fluxes. I think Brants work is fine. Some are bashing it because they are not used to it like myself.
If I take a loop impedance tester or earth bond tester to his work, I can't see ANY problem what so ever.
And as far as the flux discussion, there is No-Clean flux that was introduced just for these applications. It will protect the joint connections itself.

Call me stupid, I agree, but show me solid facts that back this discussion. I don't solder anything unless it's in a cabinet or on a PCA. Just because I don't, doesn't make Brant's work bad. I think he is wasting time, I DO NOT question his bonds.

Let's come up with something more solid before we exchange anymore jabs:rolleyes:
 
iaov said:
I'm damn glad I can wire nut my connections rather than having to solder them!:D
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So am I but you do run into some strange things in this business. When I first started to work on older homes in the down town area I found something that at first perplexed me. There were conductors run in this small, stange looking, black conduit with odd looking fittings. These were old gas pipes converted for use as electrical conduit. Live and learn.

I must say that I have run into many more unusual things doing residential remodeling than I ever saw doing new commercial or industrial work. I have found live, old, open, ceramic knife switches. They hadn't been used in years but were still live.

In many ways I get a kick out of seeing the evolution of electrical products. Many times you will find work that is 80 years old in a house that's been remodeled a half dozen times and there were some improvements made each time. In one house I think I have found devices from each decade of the last 80 or so years. You can find an old push button switch from the knob & tube days in the basement and a modern low voltage lighting system in the kitchen.
 
brantmacga said:
:D :D yeh. my wife was pulling up the drive when i was taking the pictures.

her - "what are you doing?"

me - "nothing."

her - "doesn't look like nothing. is this for that stupid website?"
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Thank you for the mental image hahahaha!!!!

Anyway pretty cool stuff, I've only read up til this post in the thread. I expect to see some defense of this "stupid website" in the next few pages, which if you are reading this means the last few pages.

Working in MA I come across many solder and tape jobs. Most of them are small 3 inch round boxes with 4 BX's coming into from each direction and all the wires crammed into the space with little or no indication as to the integrity of the insulation.

So in general my opinion is: Ick, this sucks! (And that wording is cleaned up quite a bit.)
 
iaov said:
Thanx wirebender. My wife says she ate it as a kid and it was delicious. I'll have to give it a try sometime if for no other reason than to save future confussion on my part.:D
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your wife ate solder ?
 
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