piece work

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emahler said:
growler...take resi new construction...1 mech and 1 helper rough a house...every item in that house has a set labor value...this value is simply split in some pecentage between mechanic and helper....you don't think it could work?
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I do agree that you can do residential new contruction and lighting retro-fit as piece work. It has been done and is being done. I don't think it would work for the type of work that Bob does where you may work on many different types of jobs in a short period of time. The real problem is going to be that some people will get the jobs where it's easy to make good production. I'm out in the open running pipe on a big rack running 2k ft a day and you are over in a bathroom running 200 ft. a day. I get the big pay check and you get mad and quit. It would be a matter of luck on which job you end up on. I don't think anyone has ever come up with a cost to cover each an every problem that you can run into on a commercial job. There are some good average cost out there but you never know what will happen. People like to gripe enough about getting screwed by job assignments anyway. I can only imagine how bad it would be if they thought it would effect the pay.
 
growler, while I definitely don't disagree with you...let me ask this question....

when you bid a project, do you bid all pipe installation at the same rate? would you figure the same per foot price for a straight run on a rack 6' above the floor, vs. a run with bends on a rack 30' in the air, vs. a run in a metal stud wall with bends and offsets and boxes?

The answer is probably no. You would have different rates for each install according to it's difficulty. Part of that difference would be the labor rate. So, the guy doing each different install will be paid a different piece rate. Does that make sense?

I didn't say it was an easy system...

Again, if you do bid work, you do piecework. You may pay hourly, but you only have so much labor figured into the job. So I ask, isn't the only difference between peicework and hourly this:

in piecework, I have $1000 in labor in the price. My guy knows that he will make $1000 for the sum of all the pieces. If he does it in 2 days or 5 days, he makes that same money.

In hourly, I have $1000 in labor. My guy is paid $25/hr. He knows that he needs to stretch this job out to 5 days to make his $1000.
 
Piece work may work well, when a time study is preformed, and a time and motion unit is assigned, sweat shops used this method for years, and as soon as the worker reached the assigned unit on a regular basis, the practice was to do another time study, to adjust the time downward.
 
emahler said:
growler, while I definitely don't disagree with you...let me ask this question....

when you bid a project, do you bid all pipe installation at the same rate? would you figure the same per foot price for a straight run on a rack 6' above the floor, vs. a run with bends on a rack 30' in the air, vs. a run in a metal stud wall with bends and offsets and boxes?

The answer is probably no. You would have different rates for each install according to it's difficulty. Part of that difference would be the labor rate. So, the guy doing each different install will be paid a different piece rate. Does that make sense?

I didn't say it was an easy system...

Again, if you do bid work, you do piecework. You may pay hourly, but you only have so much labor figured into the job. So I ask, isn't the only difference between peicework and hourly this:

in piecework, I have $1000 in labor in the price. My guy knows that he will make $1000 for the sum of all the pieces. If he does it in 2 days or 5 days, he makes that same money.

In hourly, I have $1000 in labor. My guy is paid $25/hr. He knows that he needs to stretch this job out to 5 days to make his $1000.
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the last sentence is not correct in my oppinion. the hourly guy doesn't know what i bid "that" portion of the job out for. he's hourly and has an attitude based on eight hours pay for eight hours work---or maybe seven hours work??? my price is based on my company's past expieriance balancing on cost and profit, or overall efficency. i have always believed that a happy crew is a productive crew. as many of the posts have discribed piecework causing moral problems within your workforce --it's human nature. there are a few, very few areas in the electrical industry where piecework "might?" work. someone mentioned "lighting retrofit" --- well i followed behind "piecework" lighting retrofitters and they also had problems. they came up with a shortcut to place one ballast to retrofit two fixtures --- but didn't understand "the basic bonding" requirements. six months after the retrofit the building hired us to properly bond the second light fixture after a maintainance engineer was shocked. on another job, they had two guys who did kitchen light fixtures in condo apt. construction. oh, the boss said "these guys have a system that nobody can beat". after the fourth floor i ran them off the job!! they were fast--- but about 25 per cent of the tombstones were broken on the fixtures... when the incentive is "speed" people will eventually get sloppy. in most cases, the cost to troubleshoot and dis-assemble---fix---and re-assemble far outweighs any (???) additional profit that the contractor might(???) make...................
 
charlie tuna said:
in most cases, the cost to troubleshoot and dis-assemble---fix---and re-assemble far outweighs any (???) additional profit that the contractor might(???) make...................
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that sentence right there is the crux of the issue....when i talk about piecework, I am not talking about the contractor making any extra profit...

I am, however, talking about a method in which the contractor will share both the rewards and the penalties with the installer.

And at the end of the day, the only think it will do is keep the employer from losing profit.

again...when I bid a project...for example a lighting retrofit.

Material - $15
Labor 15 mins at $100 - or $25
OH/P - $15

Total cost - $55 out the door, finished.

Now my labor figured is $25...so my piecework rate would be $25 each.

I am not trying to only offer $20 and make extra profit.

I am simply keeping labor from becoming $30/ea and eating into profit.

If a guy does 4 an hour, he earns the rate that he would have earned by being paid hourly.

If he does 5 an hour, he earns more. But it doesn't eat into my profit. I still make my desired profit on the job.

If he does 3 an hour, he makes less. If he were hourly, I couldn't just lower his hourly rate, I would have to fire him and replace him. Or I would make less money on the project. But, with piecework, he earns a little less, I make the same profit. If he speeds up he earns more. If he get's angry and quits, so be it. Paying him hourly would cost me money, so I'd be a "bonehead" to keep him on anyway.

I think this is the problem with piecework. Contractors have used it as a way to beat the market down, instead of spreading the rewards.

Now, if I am purely hourly, my guys don't feel any need to rush and get things done. So they may take their time and do the perfect install...but I still am basically being paid piecework by the customer. An unscrupulous boss would push his guys to get done faster (possibly even cut corners - I know, unheard of with hourly paid guys;)) so that he can increase his profits on the back of his labor. If there is $25 labor built into a unit, and he can get them to do it faster and only spend $15/unit labor, then he increases his profit. But the worker is not necessarily rewarded for their increased productivity. Talk about a morale killer.
 
I fear much of this debate is comparing apples and oranges. From an employees perspective only "tract" homes be it large or small work. These are homes that are repeated over and over and you can memorize them. Custom homes never work by the piece. It's been three years since I did a "Wexford on a basement" but I could still wire the house blindfolded and average $27-35/hr doing it.
 
there is definitely a difference of thought as to what piecework represents....I'll put forth the Merriam Webster Dictionary definition:

Main Entry: piece?work
Pronunciation: -"w&rk
Function: noun
: work done by the piece and paid for at a set rate per unit

Nothing more...nothing less...no emotions.
 
iwire said:
Pete, it's no insult I am sorry you feel it was, but it is a true statement.

You are technically proficient, I could count on you to do the job right the first time. I could always trust you and count on you. Those qualities are very important to me and the company.

You have also worked with me.

Would I be better off working by the piece or as I am?

Without a doubt I am better off by the hour.
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Fair enough. I see where you're coming from now. :)

I agree that hourly is a better deal by far for most employees.
 
emahler said:
If there is $25 labor built into a unit, and he can get them to do it faster and only spend $15/unit labor, then he increases his profit. But the worker is not necessarily rewarded for their increased productivity. Talk about a morale killer.
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So, how do you motivate the employee to work well and faster at the same time?

I've heard of 'profit sharing', but how is it implemented?
 
LarryFine said:
So, how do you motivate the employee to work well and faster at the same time?

I've heard of 'profit sharing', but how is it implemented?
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piecework:D

seriously, the only way is to find employees who are willing to share both the risks and rewards (to some extent)

peter d said:
I agree that hourly is a better deal by far for most employees.
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so true...and too often at the detriment of the company....
 
on a lighter note:

on a lighter note:

when piecework first started the drywall contractor on the high rise we were working on had his foreman count the drywall sheets at the end of each day and he would record the sheets by counting the paper strips torn off the double drywall sheets stocked in each apartment. he was very much in favor of piecework and was telling us at breaktime how productive his men had become. we were roughing the electical about three floors above the drywall installation. one of the elctricians tore the strips off a full apartment of drywall and called the drywall foreman up to the floor. you should have seen the look on his face as he looked at the missing strips. the electrician explained that the drywall installers had been ripping him off!!!
 
piece work

pmiller said:
Hi,

Was wondering if anyone would share how they charge for piece work for custom electrical work? Rough and trim? Thanks, paul
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If you're talking about new work, like additions on existing houses, here's what I charge and it works out great for home owners and builders I work for.
$50 receptacles
$50 switches
$100 standard recessed hi-hats
$75 fixture box plus hanging charge, varies for different fixtures
$175 fan boxes, includes hanging fan
$150 average for home runs

for exisiting old work cost almost doubles because of fishing of walls..
 
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