piece work

[iwire]

you mean in your company of 400 employees, no one is overpaid or underpaid?

Of course there where some of each, it was a merit shop (I have relocated) make your own deal. If you did not squeak you would not get oiled.

I was happy with my hourly / benefit package. What others around me where getting was their own business.

 

[iwire]

with piecework, you have that money, not the company. you have the responsibility to use your money as you see fit...

Bottom line

Piece work benefits the owner far and away more than it will ever benefit the employee.


Spin away, try to make it sound like your doing it for the employees but to me it rings untrue.

 

[George Stolz]

you make $2k this week? put aside for that $700 week. That's what your boss does....

But the boss has control over his finances, I don't.

 

[emahler]

But the boss has control over his finances, I don't.

so get a new wife....

 

[emahler]

Bottom line

Piece work benefits the owner far and away more than it will ever benefit the employee.


Spin away, try to make it sound like your doing it for the employees but to me it rings untrue.

ok bob....

it's the way every auto repair shop in the country works...go ask any of those mechanics if it's good for them or not...

I have a friend who is a mechanic for Infinity...His pay rate is $18/hr per book hour (or piecework if you will, since the book determines the hours a job is billed and the labor to be paid) he works an average of 45 hrs a week and makes in excess of $100,000 a year.

tell me that he'd be better off being straight hourly.

the fact that EC's (particularly small EC's) are completely uneducated about how to operate a business, and therefore become incredibly shortsighted and foolish, doesn't make the system bad.

I think hourly could be way better for the employee that it will ever be for the employer. It's easy for an employee to "steal" time without being caught. OT can be racked up without anything being accomplished.

There is a definite difference of thought between employer and employee on this topic...

 

[LarryFine]

I have a friend who is a mechanic for Infinity...His pay rate is $18/hr per book hour (or piecework if you will, since the book determines the hours a job is billed and the labor to be paid) he works an average of 45 hrs a week and makes in excess of $100,000 a year.

tell me that he'd be better off being straight hourly.

If he screws something up, does he re-do it free?

 

[peter d]

The promise of more money for more 'production' often leads to 'cheating'.

People cheat everywhere, hourly or piecework, in any trade. It makes no difference. I'm not defending piecework. I think it has a place in the industry, albeit a small one.

But I'm not ready to write it off as "bad" after hearing some of the discussion here

 

[emahler]

If he screws something up, does he re-do it free?

define free...

does he get $18/hr to install it wrong, and then $18/hr to re-install it right? No

He gets $40+/hr to install it right. If he makes a mistake, he doesn't get extra money to redo it.

So you can say he re-does it for free...I think he still makes out much better.

Do you get to charge the customer more when you make a mistake?

 

[macmikeman]

so get a new wife....

Well spoken ....

 

[iwire]

But I'm not ready to write it off as "bad" after hearing some of the discussion here

Having worked with you IMO your better off by the hour. :grin:

 

[iwire]

ok bob....

it's the way every auto repair shop in the country works...go ask any of those mechanics if it's good for them or not...

Lets do that.

Lets also ask how many get a choice?

I have a friend who is a mechanic for Infinity...His pay rate is $18/hr per book hour (or piecework if you will, since the book determines the hours a job is billed and the labor to be paid) he works an average of 45 hrs a week and makes in excess of $100,000 a year.

Lets say that is true for that mechnic.

How many Auto mechanics hourly or piece make a $100,000 a year.

Damn few and as you pointed out most are 'piece work'.

tell me that he'd be better off being straight hourly.

Maybe your friend would not be but IMO the vast majority would be. But again they do not get a choice, they chose a trade that is alread slave ....opps...I mean piece work.

I think hourly could be way better for the employee that it will ever be for the employer. It's easy for an employee to "steal" time without being caught. OT can be racked up without anything being accomplished.

So apparently the office is asleep at the switch and does not keep an eye on the employees production?

 

[iwire]

An invitation to vote at the Piece Work Poll

 

[emahler]

Lets do that.

Lets also ask how many get a choice?



Lets say that is true for that mechnic.

How many Auto mechanics hourly or piece make a $100,000 a year.

Damn few and as you pointed out most are 'piece work'.



Maybe your friend would not be but IMO the vast majority would be. But again they do not get a choice, they chose a trade that is alread slave ....opps...I mean piece work.



So apparently the office is asleep at the switch and does not keep an eye on the employees production?

Bob, no offense meant as you and I have never actually met and I do not know your real work ethic...but you sound like you may be a slacker..

So apparently the office is asleep at the switch and does not keep an eye on the employees production?

ever run a job in a 20 story building with 30 guys and try to keep track of them all day? impossible. And impossible to necessarily track every individuals productivity.

what I don't get is why everyone against piecework assumes that the company should watch hourly guys productivity like a hawk, otherwise the are "asleep at the switch" or "boneheaded"....and if a company is piece rate, they automatically stop all supervision and the world will collapse from cheating employee installations?

Bob, where you and I truly differ in thought is in personal responsibility and personal achievement....

Take the auto repair example...
You believe that all repair guys should be paid hourly...thereby negating personal responsibility to perform and punishing guys like my friend who achieve more. You may not want a collective bargaining agreementm, yet, but you sure are more worried about the guys who can't produce. You want to make sure that the slacker, or the guy who just moves slow, is rewarded just as well as a guy like my friend.

I on the other hand am a fan of Darwin. Survival of the fittest. If I am better at my job, reward me for it. Not arbitrarily by some manager who I may or may not get along with. But based on true performance.

 

[growler]

My views on piece work. I have done piece work but not in electrical contruction.

Piece work can work well for an auto mechanic. An auto mechanic can work independent of the rest of the shop. He trains to do certain task ( replace starters & alternators ) and as he gets faster it's possible to make much more money. The shop that he works for doesn't bid the job so there is no incentive for them to reduce the man hours that it list for each task ( cutting thier own throats ). As he gets faster he can make more money for himself and for the shop and I think this is great.

But that's not how it can work in other industries. First, most electrical work is not done by an individual it's done by a crew of at least two people. How are you going to pay piece work rates on a big wire pull that rquires 10 people? I have worked on a job where there were daily production reports for each crew leader and I always came up short. The reason I came up last is not because I'm slow ( at the time I was very fast) it's because all the other crews were just making up numbers to look good. Half way through the job they stopped the production reports and started to look at the actual amount of pipe that was ran. I don't see how anyone could come up with realistic numbers for every job ( book value ) that it's possible to do in the electrical trade. Unlike being an auto mechanic you can't always do the jobs that you are best at or even have the most training in. I have seen a controls man have to work for a few days in a ditch ( duct bank ) and he may not be that good at it but that's where he was needed. If we could specialize like auto mechanics then it would be great but we can't. I would never run any pipe less than 2". I like big jobs and I don't like to install receptacles but that part of the job.
I can't see piece work for electrical except for residential new contruction or lighting retro-fit. I consider that more production work than real electrical anyway. I see piece work as a good way to get a crew to walk off a job. Some people will get lucky, faster easier work and some will be unlucky and get the slower paced work and this will cause poor morale ( I can see Bob already heading for the door ). Does anyone want the crew to start comparing production numbers all day trying to figure out who is going to make the most money, that's what will happen and some people are not going to be happy.

Just my thoughts on the matter. I never thought I would pay a dollar for 12 ounces of water either. Times change.

 

[peter d]

Having worked with you IMO your better off by the hour. :grin:

Ouch. You couldn't help yourself with that one, could you?

I don't see how anything positive could come from trading insults so I won't. But that was just plain uncalled for.

 

[peter d]

Take the auto repair example...
You believe that all repair guys should be paid hourly...thereby negating personal responsibility to perform and punishing guys like my friend who achieve more. You may not want a collective bargaining agreementm, yet, but you sure are more worried about the guys who can't produce. You want to make sure that the slacker, or the guy who just moves slow, is rewarded just as well as a guy like my friend.

My friend is a mechanic by trade thought he no longer works for a shop. He was consistently screwed by the flat rate system. Why? Because he was the only person in the shop that could troubleshoot electrical problems quickly. So he got thrown all the bad jobs and warranty work (that the others in the shop couldn't handle) that paid little to nothing while the others got the gravy work like brake jobs, suspension work, etc.

He had the potential to make very decent money but not in a place where others are getting "fed" by the service manager.

 

[emahler]

growler...take resi new construction...1 mech and 1 helper rough a house...every item in that house has a set labor value...this value is simply split in some pecentage between mechanic and helper....you don't think it could work?

make no mistake, everyone is paid piecework...even hourly guys...the only differece is whether you manage the extra money or your company does.

 

[iwire]

Bob, no offense meant as you and I have never actually met and I do not know your real work ethic...but you sound like you may be a slacker..

No offense taken at all as you do not know me.

ever run a job in a 20 story building with 30 guys and try to keep track of them all day?

No, the largest crews I have run on a regular basis where about 15 and the jobs while large where on one or two floors.

impossible. And impossible to necessarily track every individuals productivity.

That is simply untrue, when the crew gets large you break it up into groups with key people running each group.

If you can't determine someones worth to the company I don't think you would be running a company.

what I don't get is why everyone against piecework assumes that the company should watch hourly guys productivity like a hawk, otherwise the are "asleep at the switch" or "boneheaded"....and if a company is piece rate, they automatically stop all supervision and the world will collapse from cheating employee installations?

In either piece work or hourly if the company is not watching....really watching.....things will go down hill.

Take the auto repair example...
You believe that all repair guys should be paid hourly...thereby negating personal responsibility to perform and punishing guys like my friend who achieve more. You may not want a collective bargaining agreement, yet, but you sure are more worried about the guys who can't produce. You want to make sure that the slacker, or the guy who just moves slow, is rewarded just as well as a guy like my friend.

No, that is not what I believe at all. Not even close.

I believe the slacker should be paid less or fired.

In the mechanic example it will be very easy to gauge who is good, who is bad and who is just plain lazy.

I on the other hand am a fan of Darwin. Survival of the fittest.

That is just as possible with hourly than piece work.

Either produce or your out the door.

The issue of personal conflicts with mangers can be handled with a system of reviews with more than one superior having input into a persons wage.

 

[iwire]

I don't see how anything positive could come from trading insults so I won't. But that was just plain uncalled for.

Pete, it's no insult I am sorry you feel it was, but it is a true statement.

You are technically proficient, I could count on you to do the job right the first time. I could always trust you and count on you. Those qualities are very important to me and the company.

You have also worked with me.

Would I be better off working by the piece or as I am?

Without a doubt I am better off by the hour.

 

[kkwong]

I think most trades are better off by the hour instead of piece work. From what I have seen, piece work causes sloppy installs and we all know that those can lead to fires, unhappy customers and warranty service calls that take away from man power and productivity.