piece work

[satcom]

but, to blindly dismiss piecework as an option is, in my opinion, wrong.

My view is piece work is jobbing, not contracting, many contractors have been using jobbers, for production type work, such as production housing, low end commercial development work, in recent years, your seeing more jobbers, working in the remodel, and custom markets.

Jobbers can earn a decent income, if the piece work they are doing is in demand, however contractors paying piece work tend to keep the piece price as close to bottom as the market can stand.

 

[emahler]

sat,

in the real world, i am not disagreeing at all...

but, in theory, piecework could be win-win....in some cases it is..

but, sadly, in many cases it's not.

but when we all bid on projects, we typically use unit pricing...that unit pricing, per item, will usually include material and labor units. You already have a number for labor...piecework just lets you stick to that number.

again, I'm not saying it's perfect or even good...I'm just saying it's not evil...

 

[mdshunk]

again, I'm not saying it's perfect or even good...I'm just saying it's not evil...

I don't think anyone has said it's evil, either.

Understand that many guys are employees for the predictibility of a regular paycheck. The unpredictibility of piecework can be a point of stress for a man, even if he's actually making out like a bandit.

 

[emahler]

I agree with you marc. sometimes i rather enjoy playing devil's advocate

 

[ceb]

sat,

in the real world, i am not disagreeing at all...

but, in theory, piecework could be win-win....in some cases it is..

but, sadly, in many cases it's not.

but when we all bid on projects, we typically use unit pricing...that unit pricing, per item, will usually include material and labor units. You already have a number for labor...piecework just lets you stick to that number.

again, I'm not saying it's perfect or even good...I'm just saying it's not evil...

You are right we as contractors bid job as "piece work" however I have given a set price for a job and by luck every thing falls in place and the job is done in 2 hrs. the customer then complains "your making too much money" ( ok i'll set here with you and watch tv if it makes you feel good) On the other hand same type work and every thing falls apart and 8 hrs later you are trying to complete the job. some you win, some you lose

 

[pmiller]

Are you taking about being paid piece work as an employee, or charging by the item as a contractor? I'm a little bit fuzzy on the exact question you're asking.

Charging as a contractor. Have been in business 12 years and have always paid either a salary or hourly wages and have a few guys who want to do piece work and they don't have a price per square foot or price by device. They perform well and are clean workers and i would like to keep them on board. Just wondering if anyone had done this before

 

[mdshunk]

Charging as a contractor. Have been in business 12 years and have always paid either a salary or hourly wages and have a few guys who want to do piece work and they don't have a price per square foot or price by device. They perform well and are clean workers and i would like to keep them on board. Just wondering if anyone had done this before

You're a contractor, and you have some guys that are interested in working piece rate.

If these guys are interested in working piece rate, but they don't have a rate in mind, my gut tells me they're sand bagging you. They sound pretty savvy, to me.

I'd have to say that what you'd pay them per device would be equal to the labor units you assign to that device when you bid. If trimming out a receptacle is .2 labor units, and if their regular wage is 20 dollars per hour, then you'd offer to pay 4 dollars per trimmed out receptacle. This is just a for instance. I actually have no idea how it works when guys do this for real, but that's how I think it works.

 

[ITO]

Piece work is a pretty common practice among home builders around here with the Mexican Nationals that seem to dominate the residential construction labor force.

The framers get a set fee per house they frame with the lead foreman deciding who gets paid what, and who gets to work on his crew, I think the going rate is something like $2.50 a square foot.

The same type of arrangement is used with the electricians, the foreman gets a set amount of money per house for each of three phases, service, rough-in, and trim out. A licensee electrician will show up to terminate the panel and check everything out after each phase.

This is one of the reasons I don?t even try to compete in the residential market here.

To be fair the higher end home builders seem to use a more legal system, but they are still cheaper than I can get.

 

[emahler]

To be fair the higher end home builders seem to use a more legal system, but they are still cheaper than I can get.

ITO, piecework is not inherintly (sp?) illegal. I believe the word you were meaning to use was "ethical"

 

[ITO]

I guess that all depends on how you spin it, but I am pretty sure the IRS and INS would consider the labor used by these types of crews as illegal. There is also a whole slue of labor laws that are being broken too, and the building practices these folks use would probably send OSHA into a feeding frenzy.

 

[emahler]

I guess that all depends on how you spin it, but I am pretty sure the IRS and INS would consider the labor used by these types of crews as illegal. There is also a whole slue of labor laws that are being broken too, and the building practices these folks use would probably send OSHA into a feeding frenzy.

that is probably very true...but again, piecework is not inherently illegal. It can be done quite legally.

just because someone doesn't follow the law, doesn't mean the system is illegal.

 

[barbeer]

made the switch to commercial where the stress is less and the work is physically much easier.

I want to work for that company! When is the last time you ran 4" RGC? I never did that in a house!

Piecework has always been kind of a black market thing here - I was promised piecework more than once and still haven't received it. There were stories told by guys coming from Colorado getting $5 a ballast for lighting retrofits and was actually told we would get it, when EC found out what our check would be, we got our hourly rate instead.

There are a couple of flat rate shops here, they will charge a little old lady $150 to change a bad sp switch for 10 min. work. Maybe my compassion runs amuck but I couldn't do it!

 

[aline]

There are a couple of flat rate shops here, they will charge a little old lady $150 to change a bad sp switch for 10 min. work. Maybe my compassion runs amuck but I couldn't do it!

Could you please explain how you can drive to a customer's home, meet with the customer, get your tools out, replace the switch, fill out the paper work, collect payment and drive to the next job in 10 minutes.

When you send an electrician out to change a switch in a customer's home do you only pay him for 10 minutes time for this?
Does he not get paid for his travel time when he does service calls?
Does he only get paid for his actual time replacing the switch?
What do you consider a fair price for driving out to a customer's home and replacing one switch?
How did you come up with this price?

Wanted. Electrician for service work. Job involves running service calls. You will be paid only for time actually replacing devices, making repairs or actually working with tools at the customer's home. You will not be paid for stocking the truck, any drive time, paper work time or talking with the customer. You can expect to complete about 8 ten minute jobs per day so you will get paid for approximately 80 minutes per day.

For me travel to the customer's home takes anywhere from 15 minutes to 45 minutes one way. I spend at least a half hour at the customer's home by the time I've changed out the switch, filled out the invoice, listened to the customer talk about her grand kids, waited for her to find her check book and write the check.

In my opinion there is no such thing as a 10 minute service call.

Some of these little old ladies have more money than I will ever see in my lifetime.

 

[LarryFine]

In my opinion there is no such thing as a 10 minute service call.

Sure there is. I did one a couple of days ago. A doctor's office called about their phone system being down after a stormy weekend.

I went in and cycled the power switch on the big box. Then I charged them $149, and they wrote me a check and didn't bat an eye.

 

[aline]

Sure there is. I did one a couple of days ago. A doctor's office called about their phone system being down after a stormy weekend.

I went in and cycled the power switch on the big box. Then I charged them $149, and they wrote me a check and didn't bat an eye.

You must have been very close or you drive very fast.

I can't get anywhere in town in ten minutes. It also takes me about ten minutes to fill out the paper work and collect payment. Unless the guys on the phone and I have to wait for him to finish.

Oh yeah then the paper work has to be done at the office and the reciepts have to somehow end up in the bank.
What about the time talking with them on the phone, getting their information and generating a work order?
What about washing the truck, ordering and picking up parts, stocking the truck? These are all things that take time and need to be done in order to run service calls. Where does that time get factored in?

If you were the electrician on that call would you only get paid for 10 minutes?

I seldom just go out and flip a breaker. I usually will check things out a little to make sure everything is ok.

 

[ITO]

I have done the $5 ballast change outs only it averages out to about $25 an hour after you figure set up time, clean up, haul off of old ballast and lamps, and tombstone repair. Also this work is usually done after hours so you miss out on the OT too.

 

[aline]

Sure there is. I did one a couple of days ago. A doctor's office called about their phone system being down after a stormy weekend.

I went in and cycled the power switch on the big box. Then I charged them $149, and they wrote me a check and didn't bat an eye.

If it's only a ten minute job why would you charge so much?

That comes out to be 60 divided by 10 = 6 of these ten minute jobs per hour.
6 X $149 = $894 per hour.

Wouldn't this be considered price gouging? Wouldn't a more reasonable rate be $25 for this 10 minute job?

 

[growler]

There are a couple of flat rate shops here, they will charge a little old lady $150 to change a bad sp switch for 10 min. work. Maybe my compassion runs amuck but I couldn't do it!

That's easy to say as an electrical plans examiner and inspector. What about the people that you work for, how much do they charge that little old lady? The money to pay your salary doesn't grow on trees. That little old lady may pay $5K a year in property taxes. If she wishes to have the house repaired she may pay $300 for a permit, it doesn't go to the contractor it goes straight to the city or county.

If you work for the goverment then you work for the biggest bunch of crooks and thieves in history. There is absolutely nothing that they don't charge for. She can't own property, shop, drive, hunt , fish or carry a concealed weapon without paying a tax. If she has a dog she can pay a tax on that to.

It's the people that you work for that force contractors to charge so much just to make a living. We can't all work for the goverment but we all have to pay them and pay them and pay them.

 

[barbeer]

My time as a Government employee has been relatively short compared to the time I spent in the trenches next to you all! I have a hard time considering myself to work for the gov't sometimes, if you were here you may understand this statement, I work for the citizens of my city.

Some should not be so quick to judge.

If there were not people doing my job we would have problems like this:

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=88845

Not many installers have much pride in their work these days.

own property, shop, drive, hunt , fish or carry a concealed weapon without paying a tax. If she has a dog she can pay a tax on that to.

I also do all these! Some things are excessive in life in general, I agree, I try and help out wherever I can. Most of all I love my dog!

 

[480sparky]

I know this is way off the subject, but as long as excessive taxes are mentioned: