piece work

[satcom]

I think we may be drifting from the topic of piece work, Inspectors are usually carefull, not to comment on what a contractor charges, however they may be the only defense, for an elderly person, that may be taken advantage of.

On the issue of the $150 for a service call to replace a switch, IMO it's more of a break even price for most service contractors, should you discount an elderly person, is anothe question, it may depend on their situation, if they are someone in need, then your community sperit should come out, and do what you can to help.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I don't know if this is the case where you all live, but here on Long Island the elderly, aged 60+ are the wealthiest demographic. They may cry poverty as they have been since the depression, but the fact is they're all sitting on $500,000.00 worth of property that's paid for.

Little old ladies don't have a money problem, they might have a cash-flow problem because it's locked up in their equity, but it's not up to a contractor to solve it for them.

 

[andinator]

I wish I knew how to use the quotes! Link any body? Barbeer asked if I had ever run four inch rigid ( I posted earlier that commercial work is physically easier than resi piecework) . I have actually, and also dug a ditch yesterday in 110F heat index! I still contend thats easier than piecing a house:grin: I certainly didn't want to offend anybody and the fact is construction work is all tough.. I pieceworked for 18 months, all aboveboard and legal and am glad I did it. Probably wouldn't do it again because I'm getting to old. I also can't run a five minute mile anymore but I can still run a mile!

 

[growler]

I have a hard time considering myself to work for the gov't sometimes, if you were here you may understand this statement, I work for the citizens of my city.

Sounds like altruistic rationalization to me. That's when a guy doesn't believe any cows actually died to provide the steak dinner.


Sorry barbeer. I know you mean well but inspectors and job pricing don't mix.

 

[LarryFine]

I wish I knew how to use the quotes!

It's simple enough. In the post you want to quote from, you hit the "quote" button in the bottom-right corner. You'll get a new window with the entire post, minus any quotes in that post, between a {quote=xxx} and a {/quote}, except the brackets will be [ and ] instead of { and }.

Then, omit any part of the post you don't want to appear by high-lighting and deleting the unwanted text, and also delete any blank spaces and lines you don't need. Then, simply type your new text below the quoted text, and there you are.

 

[George Stolz]

I wish I knew how to use the quotes! Link any body?

If you don't get it after reading Larry's post, you can also check out the FAQ on this.

It's been said that piecework can be done legally. How would you determine when it was necessary to pay the work "piece and a half" for overtime?

 

[emahler]

If you don't get it after reading Larry's post, you can also check out the FAQ on this.

It's been said that piecework can be done legally. How would you determine when it was necessary to pay the work "piece and a half" for overtime?

there is a simple answer to that, but it's too long to explain in a post.

but basically, as long as the guy earns minimum wage, and 1.5x minimum wage for over 40 hrs, it's legal.

there are ethical and moral issues at play...but legally, it can be done.

there is no law that requires someone to be paid the same hourly rate. it's just common practice.

 

[George Stolz]

but basically, as long as the guy earns minimum wage, and 1.5x minimum wage for over 40 hrs, it's legal.

there are ethical and moral issues at play...but legally, it can be done.

there is no law that requires someone to be paid the same hourly rate. it's just common practice.

I don't think that's quite right, if you're saying what I think you're saying.

Example: Jon Arbuckle makes $20 per hour twisting wirenuts. He works 48 hours one week. The employer decides to pay him $20 for all 48 hours, instead of $20 for 40 hours, and $30 for 8 hours.

I think you're saying it's fine to pay him $20 for the whole week, because $20 is greater than time-and-a-half the minimum wage - I don't agree.

The Fed D.O.L. website states:

The FLSA requires that most employees in the United States be paid at least the federal minimum wage for all hour worked and overtime pay at time and one-half the regular rate of pay for all hours worked over 40 in a workweek.

Jon's regular rate of pay is $20, so his overtime rate must be $30, IMO.

Also, on their FAQ's, it says:

Question: Are blue collar workers protected from losing overtime pay?
Answer: Yes. For the first time, blue collar workers? overtime is guaranteed in the rule.

For the first time in the history of the Fair Labor Standards Act, the ?white collar? exemptions explicitly spell out that ?blue collar? workers are not subject to the overtime exemptions. New ? 541.3(a) of the Department?s final rules guarantees the overtime rights of ?blue collar? workers ? including carpenters, electricians, mechanics, plumbers, iron workers, craftsmen, operating engineers, longshoremen, construction workers, laborers and non-management production-line employees. New ? 541.4 also explicitly protects the rights of union members who receive overtime pay pursuant to collective bargaining agreements.

One thing that just bugs me to no end is, the last time I pulled up that website, it used to clearly state the idea I expressed about piecing at time-and-a-half. Now, that page is nowhere to be found. Maybe the law changed, who knows.

 

[emahler]

no george, what I am saying is this...

unless there is a contract stating otherwise (ie..collective bargaining agreement), there is no law stating that Jon has to be paid $20/hr every week.

For example...

week 1 - he works 40 hrs and through piecework, earns $1000. His payrate that week would be $25/hr.

Week 2 - he works 50 hrs and earns $1100. His payrate for this week would be 40 hrs @$20/hr and 10 hrs OT at $30/hr (40x20=800 +300 = $1100)


so long as the $/hr is over minimum wage, it's legal. But there is no labor law (at least in NJ) that mandates that a guy be paid the same hourly rate every week...again...we are talking legally here, not ethically, morally or any other ly you might think of.

 

[George Stolz]

Ahh, I get what you're saying, and I agree with what you're saying in large part.

But if nobody's tracking the hours, who's to say what that $1100 represents?

Funny thing was, the company I worked for had us turn in a timecard anyway, to track our times. Guys would lie on their timecards about how long it took to do a house to make their piecework numbers look good.

 

[ITO]

I wish I knew how to use the quotes! Link any body?!

Here ya go...LINK

 

[emahler]

x

Insert.....

c'mon ito....say it. i learn from you.....seriously. your posts come from a different perspective than most here.

 

[ITO]

You mean like this?

Use this code:

[QUOTE=andinator]I wish I knew how to use the quotes! Link any body?![/QUOTE]

It should look like this:

I wish I knew how to use the quotes! Link any body?!

 

[barbeer]

Sounds like altruistic rationalization to me. That's when a guy doesn't believe any cows actually died to provide the steak dinner.


Sorry barbeer. I know you mean well but inspectors and job pricing don't mix.

I love steak! It's the Veal that bothers me.

I fully agree and practice not to be involved in any contractor/homeowner relations unless directed from one of the fine Governmental agencies we answer to or if the work I see from day to day isn't codeworthy (i see alot that isn't). I was actually referring back to the days when I too ran a service van.

I do not think I am fully altruistic, BUT, I do take my job seriously.

 

[ITO]

So how much time do you charge that little old lady for talking your ear off for an hour and a half, about all the great accomplishments of her grand kids?

 

[satcom]

So how much time do you charge that little old lady for talking your ear off for an hour and a half, about all the great accomplishments of her grand kids?

I think that's a hazzard rate !

 

[growler]

I love steak! It's the Veal that bothers me.

When I saw that you were in Florida I just assumed that the prices were about the same as here but after looking up the average value of a home and the average income I can see why you may think $150 service call is high. NPR doesn't appear to be a high priced area so I see where it would appear a real rip-off. If I adjusted the price for this area the cost could be anywhere from $225 to $250 and I would guess that in other areas of the country that price could be adjusted up to $300.

It's very hard to get an idea of what would be a fair price in different parts of the country. I went to a house that was being sold the other day and I guessed the price to be about 450 to 500K but the owner said they were getting 750K for it. They still complained about a service call that was under $200 and they needed the paper work to close on the house. ( one bad GFCI receptacle and one bad switch ). These people are both over 80 but I don't think they are going to starve to death.

 

[charlie tuna]

this has been a very interesting subject and there are good points on both sides--salary or piecework....

as i remember (high rise condo building) the first trade to entertain piecework was the drywall companies. the hangers would collect the paper strips off the ends of the drywall as they installed them. of course the younger, more physical guys ended up with "more strips!" and they would work overtime and weekends as their need for money warrented. after a month of this, the contractor noticed as he wrote the payroll checks that the piecework employees were making more money than himself!!! he called the leadman and lower the price per sheet. the pieceworkers just worked more hours to make up the difference! and the contractor kept lowering the price per board to try to maintain the workers pay to being close to the original normal week's pay.

at the time i had a buddy who ran the finishing crews. he was going nuts because the quality of the work performed by the hangers went crazy!! the contractor soon began to realize the increased productivity due to piecework was lost in the finish end of his contract!! of course the answer to this was "piecework for the finishers"! yes "piecework" -- it can work can work--but in a perfect world! the end result, "most of the time", is a job of less quality.

as i saw it the "not paying taxes" came at a later date. in the early ninties when worker's comp. rates went crazy it became apparent that it was actually better to run a company with less people and work overtime as necessary to stay away from hiring more workers. the profits were higher. it was then that i witnessed contractors asking their workers to incorporate and work as subcontractors to that contractor. of course the average construction worker jumped on that, and spent thier entire check, and many went for years before the IRS found them. and it was ten years before the local government agencies realized they were paying for the hospital costs for these workers and their families.

i have seen the results of piecework -- ever see an entire mexican family -- husband,wife and four kids finishing the drywall in a project house? on a sunday!!! they did not drive to the job -- they rode the bus! and worked from dusk to dawn! and were payed cash.

and then enter another issue of piecework -- the older workers cannot survive when the price per board was lowered since they were limited to how much work they could install. how does the industry make up for these "slow workers" --- hire more young mexicans..

here in the state of florida --- go to any state or county medical financed facility and look at the people waiting for free treatment. the media publsizes(sp) "that the americans refuse to pick crops" etc.,etc, truth is that only 2 per cent of the "illigals" pick crops...

yes --- in a perfect world "piecework" could work -- right now -- i see it as a perfect method of screwing the system.

i did hear a story where the electrical contractor tried piecework for the first time on a high rise conda job. worked out extreamly well for him------ until the first unit was sold and energized ------ found out over half of the receptacles and all of the smoke detectors were never wired ---just mounted!!!

ps: sorry about the rant!!

 

[dab]

how many corners will be cut to save on time. if they know the ahj will not crawl under the house will they just let nmb lay on the ground. will they not install 1 x 2 wood strips in the attic on the sides of the nmb. willl they taake 5 nmb's to a light fixture jb that only has room for 1. i could go on but you get my point. when you turn employee against employee to get the cheapest job then you eventually get what you paid for....a rush job that will have defects that will never be legal and could haunt you and your livelyhood in the future.

 

[aline]

how many corners will be cut to save on time. if they know the ahj will not crawl under the house will they just let nmb lay on the ground. will they not install 1 x 2 wood strips in the attic on the sides of the nmb. willl they taake 5 nmb's to a light fixture jb that only has room for 1. i could go on but you get my point. when you turn employee against employee to get the cheapest job then you eventually get what you paid for....a rush job that will have defects that will never be legal and could haunt you and your livelyhood in the future.

I find this kind of work goes on even when they're paid hourly.
They don't want to spend any more time in the attic or crawl space than they have to. The boss is after them to hurry and finish so they can get to the next job, etc.