- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
All industrial work with rigid conduit and stranded wire.
Pigtail all devices proposal
- Thread starter Cletis
- Start date
- Status
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
I get worried when folks want to turn a safety standard into a quality assurance standard. To me those are two distinctly different objectives and not within the scope or purpose of the NEC.
People have a right to buy junk if that is what they want to do.
A burned up connection has nothing to do with quality. Having a light in the closet is quality, but preventing a home fire is life safety. 2 separate issues.
DrSparks
The Everlasting Know-it-all!
- Location
- Madison, WI, USA
- Occupation
- Master Electrician and General Contractor
My local inspector (Madison, WI) will fail you for back stabbing. I think any master electrician who does that should reconsider his trade choice. Pure laziness...
We shouldn't need "good practice" to be written into law. There are good and bad electricians out there. Period. Home owners need to check references.
We shouldn't need "good practice" to be written into law. There are good and bad electricians out there. Period. Home owners need to check references.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
packersparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- Inspector
Not a violation. The inspector cannot enforce his/her opinion.
James L
Senior Member
- Location
- Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician
I'm gonna keep backstabbing receptacles as long as they keep making them with holes in the back.:thumbsup:
Just like using the push in connectors that are factory installed in a recessed light. Hech yeah I use them.
Light bulb sockets can have issues, too. When people screw bulbs in too tight and smash the center tab. Do it enough times, and it makes for a poor contact. And ive seen plastic sockets burned up from this.
Should we request that all light bulb sockets are made to a uniform depth, and require bulbs to have a stop ring on them, so people can't screw them in too tight?:thumbsdown:
Just like using the push in connectors that are factory installed in a recessed light. Hech yeah I use them.
Light bulb sockets can have issues, too. When people screw bulbs in too tight and smash the center tab. Do it enough times, and it makes for a poor contact. And ive seen plastic sockets burned up from this.
Should we request that all light bulb sockets are made to a uniform depth, and require bulbs to have a stop ring on them, so people can't screw them in too tight?:thumbsdown:
readydave8
re member
- Location
- Clarkesville, Georgia
- Occupation
- electrician
Yeah I don't want to have to start buying $5 each Arc Fault Wire Nuts.
readydave8
re member
- Location
- Clarkesville, Georgia
- Occupation
- electrician
Wrong.
Reason I know is that I've been fixing a lot of failing taps on older homes around here lately, have been seeing a lot of splices where installer made beautiful, tight spiral twist, twice as long as wire nut would cover, and insulated with tape.
Try to remember that you are only seeing the ones that failed, the ones done right aren't looked at as often since they have not failed.
DrSparks
The Everlasting Know-it-all!
- Location
- Madison, WI, USA
- Occupation
- Master Electrician and General Contractor
Several key points to digest:
#1 The AHJ makes the call. Local authorities can choose to adopt or reject any NEC guideline.
#2 Backstabbing is a terrible practice for three good reasons. They are as follows:
a. The spring-loaded clips on cheap residential grade receptacles do not make very good contact, which could cause arcing or nuisance AFCI tripping
b. Should the neutral continuity be interrupted. We all know what happens when you touch an open neutral when the circuit is under load
c. Code allows for 15 or 20A receps. (residential only) to be installed on a 20A circuit if there are more than one recep on the circuit, but if the current passes through a 15A-rated device, the tap rule does not apply. You would be allowing 20A to potentially pass through a 15A-rated conductor.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
I have been told that receptacles for 15A can pass through 20A under their listing and the NEC.
Active devices like GFCIs interrupt the pass through current and so a 15A device of that type may not automatically be rated for 20A pass through.
Active devices like GFCIs interrupt the pass through current and so a 15A device of that type may not automatically be rated for 20A pass through.
James L
Senior Member
- Location
- Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician
The only time I've seen a real problem with backstabbing was about 20 years ago. Back then, the holes were big enough for 12 gauge wire.
Someone else's helper showed up on my finish. He was kinda green, so I had him put receptacles in the bedrooms (14 gauge wire). When I checked out the house, none of the bedroom plugs worked.
I started pulling out receps, and all the wires were stabbed in right, but I didn't have any power anywhere. So I asked him how much wire he stripped before he stabbed them in.
He sort of scrunched his face a little and asked......."you have to strip them?" :blink:
Someone else's helper showed up on my finish. He was kinda green, so I had him put receptacles in the bedrooms (14 gauge wire). When I checked out the house, none of the bedroom plugs worked.
I started pulling out receps, and all the wires were stabbed in right, but I didn't have any power anywhere. So I asked him how much wire he stripped before he stabbed them in.
He sort of scrunched his face a little and asked......."you have to strip them?" :blink:
That only happens because people do not make up their splices rock solid before the installation of the wire nut.:angel:
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Only if it is adopted into law, is a local AHJ able to enforce his wish? Some states that have state wide codes do not allow a local inspector adopt his own codes as Indiana is one such state, actually in Indiana there is no local AHJ as the state building department is the AHJ.
Any EC who does not take the time to look up the laws of their state as for the enforcement of building codes is doing their customers a disservice because they are allowing a self centered AHJ to enforce codes that are not required and can cost the customer more money in some cases., Illinois doesn't have state wide codes but I thought Wisconsin did???
From some reading of Wisconsin law I'm finding it also has these same requirements as Indiana, that the local inspector also has to enforce code as adopted by the state and can't be in conflict with the state code, and find no such change to the allowance of using stab in connections to receptacles and switch's?? you can read your state law here:
WISCONSIN STATUTES AND ADMINISTRATIVE CODE RELATING TO ELECTRICAL
See 316.004(2):
As I found in the Wisconsin's law a local inspector is just that, like Indiana he is not an AHJ as it is the states department that is the AHJ in this case.
backstabs are UL listed for 15 and 20 amp circuits for switch's and 15 amp circuits only for receptacles as some years ago UL made the manufactures of receptacles reduce the hole diameter of the backstab to only allow #14 awg
See above
Or an open hot but if done correctly why should it be a problem, it is users choice
All 15 amp receptacles are UL rated for 20 amps pass-through including GFCI's and is why 15 amp duplex receptacles and switch's are allowed to be used on 20 amp circuits, again the above answers is what the code making panel will use to shoot your request down.
I myself will not use the backstabs for receptacles even though I pigtail all my receptacles, but where I know the load like a switch is feeding only a few lights or a receptacle is feeding a small fixed load then I have no problem using them, the only place where I have ever seen a problem is when someone uses an electric space heater or other high wattage appliance like a hair dryer, in these cases not only do I pig tail but I wrap the wire around both sets of screws on the receptacle giving allot more contact area for the wire, never had a failure when done like this.
As for the Wagos (stab in wire connectors) go again it depends upon the load as for a single or even a couple fixtures I have no problem with them but if each stab has several fixtures on it then I'll use a wire nut.
As far as changing the NEC I'm not for it as I like the flexibility to wire as I chose, we don't need any more design codes put into the NEC as we have far too many now.
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- Location
- Massachusetts
No kidding, and the same can be said of passing through a device.
It is not the product that is a problem it is the installer.
mjf
Senior Member
My vote is that the above statement is true, excluding "backstabbed" devices. My experience has shown me that the product becomes the problem.
readydave8
re member
- Location
- Clarkesville, Georgia
- Occupation
- electrician
1. Where does it say residential only?
2. Someone probably already said it, but I believe that a 15 amp duplex receptacle is rated for 20 amp pass thru?
3. Does this tap rule apply to any part of this situation? I'm not up on "the tap rule" but I don't think so?
All i've done is residential/commercial service work for 20+years. I've seen hundreds, if not 1000's of burnt up receptacles. Due to backstabbing (mostly (not the installers fault), screw not ever tightened (next most frequent, installers fault), and the devices just plain failing internally. What it comes down to is I'm against using residential 15 and 20 amp receptacle devices and pass-thru power. That is the crux of my beef. I have 3 yrs to propose this it seems if I can find the time.
packersparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- Inspector
As Wayne mentioned, in Wisconsin, a municipality cannot adopt standards that are more restrictive than SPS 316 and the NEC on one and two family dwellings.(unless they where built before 1980) Act 270 which was just recently signed into law, says the same thing for other than dwellings.
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kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
If a circuit breaker fails, or any failure resulting in several outlets not working - and same home owner/occupant may still run extension cords, IMO this is not going to be enough substantiation to change a code.
The backstab, or even feeding through via screw terminals is using a product according to it's listing. Though many do agree the backstabbing seems to have a higher failure rate, it is a listed method. If you want to see a change here you may actually have a better chance of getting the listing criteria changed, otherwise continue to do what you do and sell your installs based on how much better they are then the guys that cut corners and/or only give minimal effort to meed codes and standards. A Cadillac and a Buick are in many ways the same thing, yet one has had more attention put into certain details and they do sell at a different sticker price because of some of those details.
NEC does require "pigtailing" of the neutral where it is part of a multiwire branch circuit, they do recognize there is increased hazards if that particular connection fails.
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