POCO considering charging customers for new transformer.

[cwgreenelectric]

What are your thoughts?
I recently had a service call to check out dimming lights in a residence that recently had an addition ( converted a carport to a room).
During my survey I found a new 18kw electric tankless water heater. Every time it came on the voltage feeding the house dropped 30 volts. This was measured at the top of the meter. I had the customer contact the poco for repair. Customer indicated 2 weeks later that the problem was fixed.
A few days later I ran into a manager from the poco and asked what they found. She told me that they are tired of having to change transformers and service drops because customers are installing these high wattage electric appliances without first checking with them about service requirements and are likely going to start charging customers for the upgrades.

The house was mid 70s and probably 1 of 3 houses on the transformer. House had original 200a service and well within the 200a load calculation. Currently there are 5 houses on the service transformer.

How can the poco justify charging customers for upgrades to their system when the home is still well under load of the original service supply equipment?

 

[Knightryder12]

What are your thoughts?
I recently had a service call to check out dimming lights in a residence that recently had an addition ( converted a carport to a room).
During my survey I found a new 18kw electric tankless water heater. Every time it came on the voltage feeding the house dropped 30 volts. This was measured at the top of the meter. I had the customer contact the poco for repair. Customer indicated 2 weeks later that the problem was fixed.
A few days later I ran into a manager from the poco and asked what they found. She told me that they are tired of having to change transformers and service drops because customers are installing these high wattage electric appliances without first checking with them about service requirements and are likely going to start charging customers for the upgrades.

The house was mid 70s and probably 1 of 3 houses on the transformer. House had original 200a service and well within the 200a load calculation. Currently there are 5 houses on the service transformer.

How can the poco justify charging customers for upgrades to their system when the home is still well under load of the original service supply equipment?

Most POCOs do not like the electric tankless water heaters. I think that big of a load should get approval first. But charging the customer? That seems a little much.

 

[PaulMmn]

How does a tankless water heater compare to an EV charger??

 

[petersonra]

If the customer wants more power, it is on them to pay for it, including utility upgrades that might be required.

 

[LarryFine]

The POCO should be happy to sell more power.

 

[electrofelon]

If the customer wants more power, it is on them to pay for it, including utility upgrades that might be required.

Maybe, it depends on the specifics of the tariff in a given area or state

 

[electrofelon]

How does a tankless water heater compare to an EV charger??

Tankless are typically much larger, and not only that, I imagine the longer term consistent loading of an EV charger is much friendlier to the grid than a larger intermittent load.

 

[wwhitney]

How does a tankless water heater compare to an EV charger??

1 kW will raise the temperature of 1 gpm of water 6.83 degrees F. So if you turn on your 2 gpm shower and you need to get your 50F incoming water to 110F, that takes 2*60/6.83 = 17.6 kW, the full capacity of the 18 kW tankless mentioned in the OP. That draw will last as long as your shower does.

An EVSE will be 16A - 80A at generally 240V; 30A is a pretty common size. So that draws 7.2 kW, and depending on how much depleted your EV traction battery is, may do so for hours continuously. But TOU rates often provide an incentive to do that charging primarily at night.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[petersonra]

Maybe, it depends on the specifics of the tariff in a given area or state

It does, but is it fair to charge Joe for costs incurred by Fred?

 

[electrofelon]

It does, but is it fair to charge Joe for costs incurred by Fred?

It's really all about the tariff. I know in my area , for residential, we pay higher kilowatt hour rates but get infrastructure generally for free or cheap. For example, Residential transformer upgrades as a result of solar systems are only $300. New residential connections are pretty much free. Nothing is free, that's just built into the energy rates. I would guess it's not deemed worth the hassle to bill residential customers differently based on the infrastructure they require.

 

[ramsy]

House had original 200a service and well within the 200a load calculation. Currently there are 5 houses on the service transformer.

Hard to believe an Article 220 load calc shows 18k tankless within existing 1970's electrical-service design plans. Unless it was a custom home, 1970's contractors would have paid a premium for 200A service with 75A of head room for future expansion.

If 200A service really is 2 times over sized, because it was added later without permits, microfiche records would show the original 100A.

I believe new appliances are typically hacked in without building permits, if not to avoid retroactive enforcement of larger remodel hack jobs.

Since existing utility lines are always smaller than building services, and can burn up after expanded occupancy, remodels, & appliance hacks, Cable limiters are one solution for utilities dealing with residential in the wild.

In the mean time, I would expect repeat loss of new cables to be billable, when occupants refuse the building permits that would have notified utility of larger size service requirements.

 

[cwgreenelectric]

Most POCOs do not like the electric tankless water heaters. I think that big of a load should get approval first. But charging the customer? That seems a little much.

If the customer wants more power, it is on them to pay for it, including utility upgrades that might be required.

The local pocos do not require a calculation on expected usage. Don't you think they should have sized their equipment to the potential load of the services being supplied?

 

[petersonra]

The local pocos do not require a calculation on expected usage. Don't you think they should have sized their equipment to the potential load of the services being supplied?

No. What they gave the customer worked. Now the customer wants something else.

 

[electrofelon]

. Don't you think they should have sized their equipment to the potential load of the services being supplied?

This is a common misconception. POCOS install equipment to supply the loads you provide them, they generally don't care what the NEC service size is. Technically you're always supposed to notify them when there is a change of load.

 

[Knightryder12]

No. What they gave the customer worked. Now the customer wants something else.

What's the difference between what the OP said and lets say someone puts in an inground pool and the existing service drop will be right over the new pool. Should the POCO charge the homeowner for that? Isn't it the responsibility of the POCO to provide their clients with safe, reliable and amble power?

Also, I know the POCOs in my area have been charging customers for new equipment when a new building is being built for a long time now. Back in the day all of that was free because they knew they would make that up on the revenue. What changed?

 

[hillbilly1]

Our residential rate per kWh is much lower that commercial, that’s why a lot of the commercial buildings in our area are single phase because that rate applies. They have almost quadrupled the charge for underground services from $1200 to now $4200! Overhead was free, but now is only a couple of hundred less than underground.

 

[gadfly56]

What's the difference between what the OP said and lets say someone puts in an inground pool and the existing service drop will be right over the new pool. Should the POCO charge the homeowner for that? Isn't it the responsibility of the POCO to provide their clients with safe, reliable and amble power?

Also, I know the POCOs in my area have been charging customers for new equipment when a new building is being built for a long time now. Back in the day all of that was free because they knew they would make that up on the revenue. What changed?

Back in the day, the POCO was wrangling both equipment and electrons. Now, a lot of POCO's either stopped selling electricity or they are competing with 10 other sellers in the market. Now their only sure source of income is based on their installed infrastructure.

 

[jaggedben]

How does a tankless water heater compare to an EV charger??

The tankless WH is much worse. Some of them do 36kW. The typical car charges at no more than 11kW. Also the utility might be happy to upgrade a transformer for free if they get to charge for all the kilo-watt-*hours* an EV uses. The water heater uses 18 or 36kW for a few minutes at a time. So it's all power demand (kW) without the comparable energy consumption (kWh) that utility usually charges by in residential. A heat pump water heater would use the same energy or less, but run for hours at 3-5kW, which would never cause such bad voltage drop.

Usually I'm skeptical of utility justifications but when it comes to tankless on-demand water heaters, they have my sympathy.
Honestly I would very rarely say something like this, but I think these tankless electric heaters should be banned. Or a utility should be allowed to issue demand chargers to residential customers with them.

 

[hornetd]

Back in the day, the POCO was wrangling both equipment and electrons. Now, a lot of POCO's either stopped selling electricity or they are competing with 10 other sellers in the market. Now their only sure source of income is based on their installed infrastructure.

In the United States the same stockholder owned company may not sell and also distribute electricity. That is why so many companies were divided into 2 separate companies. They spun off their generation assets into a new company and divide the stock on the basis of the current worth of both assets. Consumer electrical cooperatives are not subject to that restriction as they are non profit and have less reason to try to coerce their members to buy the power from the distributing cooperative.

 

[electrofelon]

In the United States the same stockholder owned company may not sell and also distribute electricity. .

Tom that is not true. It varies by state. Here in NY national grid distributes and also generates. I can buy my electricity from them, but I can also choose another generator. TX is the only example I know of where consumers must chose a different energy provider.