Portable Generators - GFCI - System Bonding Jumper

[Vector]

The argument seems to be where does the NEC end, in Mike's case it's at the generator, in Vector's case it's at the inlet. I would lean towards it ending at the inlet but would raise the question about the generator that will eventually be plugged into the inlet. Does that generator need to have the frame bonding jumper removed before it can be connected to the premise wiring? Would the inspector need to look at that or would that fall squarely on the shoulders of the homeowner?

I've never seen anything saying that it is required for the inspector to check a portable generator's wiring configuration nor have I had an inspector ask for it.

I'm interested in seeing the letter of the law in Mike's state saying that it's required.

 

[jwelectric]

I've never seen anything saying that it is required for the inspector to check a portable generator's wiring configuration nor have I had an inspector ask for it.

I'm interested in seeing the letter of the law in Mike's state saying that it's required.

? 66-25. Acceptable listings as to safety of goods.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]All electrical materials, devices, appliances, and equipment shall be evaluated for safety and suitability for intended use. This evaluation shall be conducted in accordance with nationally recognized standards and shall be conducted by a qualified testing laboratory. The Commissioner of Insurance, through the Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance, shall implement the procedures necessary to approve suitable national standards and to approve suitable qualified testing laboratories. The Commissioner may assign his authority to implement the procedures for specific materials, devices, appliances, or equipment to other agencies or bodies when they would be uniquely qualified to implement those procedures.

In the event that the Commissioner determines that electrical materials, devices, appliances, or equipment in question cannot be adequately evaluated through the use of approved national standards or by approved qualified testing laboratories, the Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance shall specify any alternative evaluations which safety requires.

The Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance shall keep in file, where practical, copies of all approved national standards and resumes of approved qualified testing laboratories. (1933, c. 555, s. 3; 1989, c. 681, s. 1.)
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[jwelectric]

the usual generator that will connect these is a service truck mounted welder/generator unit. Who knows which truck will be brought there if a generator is needed, may not even be one currently owned.

I thought we were talking about stand-alone generators not these portable generators. Here we are talking about two different installations

 

[jwelectric]

It's not my job or your job to help the inspector cover his *ss.

You are right but as an inspector you can bet your bottom dollar that I will cover it.

What unit? That's like saying the EC and inspector have an obligation to make sure that a TV the customer uses works correctly.

Here you are connecting something to the wiring system but with the generator you are connecting the wiring system to something.

A very big difference

 

[kwired]

* Does a generator have to be connected to the inlet? What about a vehicle with an inverter? A portable bank of batteries? A portable solar panel? A stationary bike attached to an alternator?

Exactly right. That inlet can be supplied by any source.

The argument seems to be where does the NEC end, in Mike's case it's at the generator, in Vector's case it's at the inlet. I would lean towards it ending at the inlet but would raise the question about the generator that will eventually be plugged into the inlet. Does that generator need to have the frame bonding jumper removed before it can be connected to the premise wiring? Would the inspector need to look at that or would that fall squarely on the shoulders of the homeowner?

And if they buy another generator with same receptacle on it down the road why should it need reinspected?

It's not my job or your job to help the inspector cover his *ss.


Moral obligations* have nothing to do with this. And there is no legal obligation.

My own personal moral obligation is taken care of in the document that I give to all my customers explaining how they need a generator with an L14-30R or L14-20R receptacle and how they need to buy a big enough generator to power what they intend to use during an outage. I have received many calls from customers while at the store asking if a particular generator that they found on sale would be good for them. I feel that I have done my duty as a contractor, and many times go above and beyond.



What unit? That's like saying the EC and inspector have an obligation to make sure that a TV the customer uses works correctly.

The EC and the inspector have nothing to do with whatever the homeowner connects to the inlet.

Following your logic, the homeowner should call for a reinspection if he purchases a new generator. I think we could both agree that is not necessary.

I thought we were talking about stand-alone generators not these portable generators. Here we are talking about two different installations

Now you are backing into a corner, read the title of the thread, I have been talking about portable generators from the start. I don't know what you mean by stand alone, as that can be permanently installed or portable.

 

[Vector]

? 66-25. Acceptable listings as to safety of goods.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]All electrical materials, devices, appliances, and equipment shall be evaluated for safety and suitability for intended use. This evaluation shall be conducted in accordance with nationally recognized standards and shall be conducted by a qualified testing laboratory. The Commissioner of Insurance, through the Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance, shall implement the procedures necessary to approve suitable national standards and to approve suitable qualified testing laboratories. The Commissioner may assign his authority to implement the procedures for specific materials, devices, appliances, or equipment to other agencies or bodies when they would be uniquely qualified to implement those procedures.

In the event that the Commissioner determines that electrical materials, devices, appliances, or equipment in question cannot be adequately evaluated through the use of approved national standards or by approved qualified testing laboratories, the Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance shall specify any alternative evaluations which safety requires.

The Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance shall keep in file, where practical, copies of all approved national standards and resumes of approved qualified testing laboratories. (1933, c. 555, s. 3; 1989, c. 681, s. 1.)
[/FONT][/FONT]

Nothing here gives an electrical inspector the right to demand to inspect a portable generator that the customer may not even own yet.

You are right but as an inspector you can bet your bottom dollar that I will cover it.

Without any legal basis to do so?

Nice :roll:

 

[kwired]

Nothing here gives an electrical inspector the right to demand to inspect a portable generator that the customer may not even own yet.



Without any legal basis to do so?

Nice :roll:

Is a little like failing an installation that has spare breakers installed in a panelboard with no circuit connected to them isn't it?

 

[GoldDigger]

There is nothing in place that would force compliance, so why would they comply with a rule that they are not required to comply with?

The only thing that would motivate them to comply would be if their customers found it easier to meet code or design requirements with their generator if it complied. They would be voting with their dollars. If there is still a market for non-compliant generators, they will continue to be made.
I can also imagine situations where using a compliant generator would cause headaches.

 

[GoldDigger]

Is a little like failing an installation that has spare breakers installed in a panelboard with no circuit connected to them isn't it?

I had a home inspector (not AHJ inspector) complain about pre-installed wiring for a future A/C left unconnected (but properly insulated and secured) within the main panel enclosure. He said that NEC required it to be removed if not used!

 

[jwelectric]

Nothing here gives an electrical inspector the right to demand to inspect a portable generator that the customer may not even own yet.



Without any legal basis to do so?

Nice :roll:

A 702 installation is a complete installation. What you propose is not a complete 702 installation.
702.1 Scope.
The provisions of this article apply to the installation and operation of optional standby systems.
The systems covered by this article consist of those that are permanently installed in their entirety, including prime movers, and those that are arranged for a connection to a premises wiring system from a portable alternate power supply.


702.11 Portable Generator Grounding.
(A) Separately Derived System. Where a portable optional standby source is used as a separately derived system, it shall be grounded to a grounding electrode in accordance with 250.30.
(B) Nonseparately Derived System. Where a portable optional standby source is used as a nonseparately derived system, the equipment grounding conductor shall be bonded to the system grounding electrode.

110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

FTCN.GuideInfo
Engine Generators for Portable Use
[Engine Generators] Engine Generators for Portable Use

445.1702.10(A)702.10(B)445.1702.10(A)702.10(B)445.1702.11(A)702.11(B)
GENERAL

This category covers internal-combustion-engine-driven generators rated 15 kW or less, 250 V or less, which are provided only with receptacle outlets for the ac output circuits. The generators may incorporate alternating- or direct-current generator sections for supplying energy to battery-charging circuits.
When a portable generator is used to supply a building or structure wiring system:
1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, "National Electrical Code" (NEC).
2. The generator is intended to be connected through permanently installed certified transfer equipment that switches all conductors other than the equipment grounding conductor.
3. The frame of a certified generator is connected to the equipment-grounding conductor and the grounded (neutral) conductor of the generator. When properly connected to a premises or structure wiring system, the portable generator will be connected to the premises or structure grounding electrode for its ground reference.
4. Portable generators used other than to power building or structure wiring systems are intended to be connected to ground if required by the NEC.
PRODUCT IDENTITY

The following product identity may appear on the product:
Engine Generator for Portable Use



You make you application for a permit for what? If it is for an optional standby system then I will see that complete system to ensure that what is being installed complies with the adopted laws of my state. In order to comply it must meet 110.3(B) and be listed. If it is listed it will be built to the compliance to UL Standard 2201 and the neutral will be bonded to the frame of the generator.

You are the one who applied for the permit and you will be the one I will be asking about the generator. Should you decide to take your personal generator for inspecting purposes and then remove the generator I promise that you will have a chance to explain your actions to your licensing board.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The only thing that would motivate them to comply would be if their customers found it easier to meet code or design requirements with their generator if it complied. They would be voting with their dollars. If there is still a market for non-compliant generators, they will continue to be made.
I can also imagine situations where using a compliant generator would cause headaches.

That falls into line with my comment about the manufacturing of the non-listed sealtight. The demand is there for the non-listed product so the maufacturer's continue to sell it. Around here at the smaller supply houses, they only stock the non-listed product. The code compliant product is a "special order".

The listing requires the use of transfer equipment that switches the grounded conductor so, the use of the listed product will create more headaches.

 

[Vector]

A 702 installation is a complete installation. What you propose is not a complete 702 installation.
702.1 Scope.
The provisions of this article apply to the installation and operation of optional standby systems.
The systems covered by this article consist of those that are permanently installed in their entirety, including prime movers, and those that are arranged for a connection to a premises wiring system from a portable alternate power supply.


702.11 Portable Generator Grounding.
(A) Separately Derived System. Where a portable optional standby source is used as a separately derived system, it shall be grounded to a grounding electrode in accordance with 250.30.
(B) Nonseparately Derived System. Where a portable optional standby source is used as a nonseparately derived system, the equipment grounding conductor shall be bonded to the system grounding electrode.

110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

FTCN.GuideInfo
Engine Generators for Portable Use
[Engine Generators] Engine Generators for Portable Use

445.1702.10(A)702.10(B)445.1702.10(A)702.10(B)445.1702.11(A)702.11(B)
GENERAL

This category covers internal-combustion-engine-driven generators rated 15 kW or less, 250 V or less, which are provided only with receptacle outlets for the ac output circuits. The generators may incorporate alternating- or direct-current generator sections for supplying energy to battery-charging circuits.
When a portable generator is used to supply a building or structure wiring system:
1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, "National Electrical Code" (NEC).
2. The generator is intended to be connected through permanently installed certified transfer equipment that switches all conductors other than the equipment grounding conductor.
3. The frame of a certified generator is connected to the equipment-grounding conductor and the grounded (neutral) conductor of the generator. When properly connected to a premises or structure wiring system, the portable generator will be connected to the premises or structure grounding electrode for its ground reference.
4. Portable generators used other than to power building or structure wiring systems are intended to be connected to ground if required by the NEC.
PRODUCT IDENTITY

The following product identity may appear on the product:
Engine Generator for Portable Use



You make you application for a permit for what? If it is for an optional standby system then I will see that complete system to ensure that what is being installed complies with the adopted laws of my state. In order to comply it must meet 110.3(B) and be listed. If it is listed it will be built to the compliance to UL Standard 2201 and the neutral will be bonded to the frame of the generator.

You are the one who applied for the permit and you will be the one I will be asking about the generator. Should you decide to take your personal generator for inspecting purposes and then remove the generator I promise that you will have a chance to explain your actions to your licensing board.

Can you please show me where it's written in your state law that electrical inspectors have the right to demand a homeowner purchases a portable generator in order for the inspector to inspect at the time of a transfer panel/inlet installation?

I'd also like to see where it's written that you can only connect a portable generator to the inlet.

To answer your question, I pull a permit for a transfer switch or interlock and inlet installation. My permit has absolutely nothing to do with a generator, nor does my installation. The same way as I pull a permit for a receptacle and have nothing to do with what the customer plugs into it.

When I install an automatic standby generator permanently connected, then it's a different story.

If I used my own personal generator to connect to the system in order to show it in use, I would have zero liability and I wouldn't have to answer to my state licensing board for anything.

BTW, can you show the form that homeowners in your state fill out in order to get an inspection when they buy a new portable generator to connect to their inlet?

I wonder what a rogue inspector would have done on the job I did last month where the customer wanted to connect both a GTO powered alternator and a Honda EU2000i inverter generator.

 

[ceb58]

I will throw my .02 cents worth in. First you have to be here to understand here.

The Commissioner may assign his authority to implement the procedures for specific materials, devices, appliances, or equipment to other agencies or bodies when they would be uniquely qualified to implement those procedures

The Dept. of Insurance has "given" the power to the local inspection departments to uphold the letter and intent of the laws. Now, in a lot of cases the inspector will not completely enforce the intent. Just as being discussed how can you inspect something that is not there or may change. The inspector can inspect what is there for its code compliance and move on. Even if a portable were there at the time of inspection there is nothing to prevent or cause a reinspection if the portable were changed to a different brand or size. Or he can comply with the letter of the law and insist the generator be there. Now on a permanently installed unit with an ATS I could see the inspector having an issue with passing the install if the generator was not there because of the wording in 702.4(B)(2)(a). How would he know if it were size correctly? The article says SHALL BE suitable for the full load. So by that how would you really know what was installed. But on the other hand I have an install coming up where the customer wants the ATS put in now during construction and we will install generator later. I know and have the calculations that it will need to be a 20 Kw unit. So to prevent a cluster I have all ready sat down with the chief inspector on what he wanted to see. We came to an agreement that I would install a permanent label stating Min. size generator 20 Kw max size 40Kw. ( backing up 1 of 2 200 amp panels on a 400 amp service)

 

[GoldDigger]

We came to an agreement that I would install a permanent label stating Min. size generator 20 Kw max size 40Kw.

Will the label also require that the generator be listed?

 

[kwired]

I will throw my .02 cents worth in. First you have to be here to understand here. The Dept. of Insurance has "given" the power to the local inspection departments to uphold the letter and intent of the laws. Now, in a lot of cases the inspector will not completely enforce the intent. Just as being discussed how can you inspect something that is not there or may change. The inspector can inspect what is there for its code compliance and move on. Even if a portable were there at the time of inspection there is nothing to prevent or cause a reinspection if the portable were changed to a different brand or size. Or he can comply with the letter of the law and insist the generator be there. Now on a permanently installed unit with an ATS I could see the inspector having an issue with passing the install if the generator was not there because of the wording in 702.4(B)(2)(a). How would he know if it were size correctly? The article says SHALL BE suitable for the full load. So by that how would you really know what was installed. But on the other hand I have an install coming up where the customer wants the ATS put in now during construction and we will install generator later. I know and have the calculations that it will need to be a 20 Kw unit. So to prevent a cluster I have all ready sat down with the chief inspector on what he wanted to see. We came to an agreement that I would install a permanent label stating Min. size generator 20 Kw max size 40Kw. ( backing up 1 of 2 200 amp panels on a 400 amp service)

Makes perfect sense and is not much different than installing conductors for a future load. The thing that complicates the portable generator is whether or not the neutral should be bonded at the generator, as well as in the past some have been bonded and some have not. If there had been some consistency a long time ago this would be a lot simpler to deal with now. Mr. Homeowner is going to have a hard time understanding why there is something wrong with plugging in to the same inlet if the new generator has the same receptacle on it as the old one had. I kind of do myself, as I personally feel the generator neutral should not be bonded to the frame and that if it is ungrounded GFCI is not all that necessary. Connect it to a premises wiring system and it is bonded via the premises wiring.

 

[ceb58]

Makes perfect sense and is not much different than installing conductors for a future load. The thing that complicates the portable generator is whether or not the neutral should be bonded at the generator, as well as in the past some have been bonded and some have not. If there had been some consistency a long time ago this would be a lot simpler to deal with now. Mr. Homeowner is going to have a hard time understanding why there is something wrong with plugging in to the same inlet if the new generator has the same receptacle on it as the old one had. I kind of do myself, as I personally feel the generator neutral should not be bonded to the frame and that if it is ungrounded GFCI is not all that necessary. Connect it to a premises wiring system and it is bonded via the premises wiring.

The only thing is what the UL white book is saying. This was posted here a while back

ENGINE GENERATORS FOR PORTABLE USE (FTCN)

GENERAL
This category covers internal-combustion-engine-driven generators rated
15 kW or less, 250 V or less, which are provided only with receptacle outlets
for the ac output circuits. The generators may incorporate alternating or
direct-current generator sections for supplying energy to battery charging
circuits.

When a portable generator is used to supply a building wiring system:
1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance
with ANSI/NFPA 70, ??National Electrical Code?? (NEC).

2. The generator is intended to be connected through permanently
installed Listed transfer equipment that switches all conductors other
than the equipment grounding conductor.

3. The frame of a Listed generator is connected to the equipment grounding
conductor and the grounded (neutral) conductor of the
generator. When properly connected to a premises or structure, the
portable generator will be connected to the premises or structure
grounding electrode for its ground reference.

4. Portable generators used other than to power building structures are
intended to be connected to ground in accordance with the NEC.

So by this the switch for a portable unit must switch the neutral and the generator shall be installed as a SDS when connected to premise wiring.

 

[kwired]

The only thing is what the UL white book is saying. This was posted here a while back So by this the switch for a portable unit must switch the neutral and the generator shall be installed as a SDS when connected to premise wiring.

I have yet to see a transfer switch / transfer panel that is marketed for use with these have a switched neutral.

Any idea why the magic number of 15KVA as being a point where all of a sudden it is or is not safe to do this one way vs the other? Seems to me that a 14 KVA unit wouldn't be any more or less safe than a 16 or even a 3, 5, 8 or 12.:slaphead:

 

[ceb58]

I have yet to see a transfer switch / transfer panel that is marketed for use with these have a switched neutral.

Any idea why the magic number of 15KVA as being a point where all of a sudden it is or is not safe to do this one way vs the other? Seems to me that a 14 KVA unit wouldn't be any more or less safe than a 16 or even a 3, 5, 8 or 12.:slaphead:

Here is a link to them http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?XRC0303C I guess the same guy chose 15Kw for that and the GFCI requriment

 

[GoldDigger]

Here is a link to them http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?XRC0303C....

Nice to see that somebody has addressed the sequencing problem associated with switching the neutral in either split-phase or wye services.

 

[templdl]

I see it as the portable generator is not covered by the NEC.

How you connect it to a premises wiring system is.

Here is a link to them http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?XRC0303C ....

Nice to see that somebody has addressed the sequencing problem associated with switching the neutral in either split-phase or wye services.

As I have referred to back in my post #2.