Portable Generators - GFCI - System Bonding Jumper

[infinity]

There is nothing in place that would force compliance, so why would they comply with a rule that they are not required to comply with?

If the rule also fostered a change in the Ul listing of the equipment then it would need to comply to be a listed generator. I'm not saying that the listing requirements have changed but I thought that this NEC change was generated in concert with Ul.

 

[goldstar]

I agree, why would a manufacturer care what the NEC wants?

If manufacturers start making portables like the ones JWElectric pointed out or if inspectors start finding reasons to fail installations where these type portable generators are being installed, manufacturers will stop making them. As has been mentioned, as long as there is a demand for these producte they'll manufactured.

Being in NJ, I have installed countless interlock kits and transfer panels. Not once has an inspector asked about the generator. In many of these installations the homeowner didn't even buy the generator yet (they were hard to find for a while).

a) Are the interlock kits you've used been UL listed by the manufacturer of the panel you've used them on; b) You obviously haven't run across an inspector that wants to see the unit actually work.

What the homeowner attaches to the inlet is none of my concern.

AHH, but it is !!!

I give advice, but its up to them to listen to it or not.

Not good enough. What if the buy the wrong unit, got an electric shock plugging in the cord, can't start the unit you recommended, etc. You'll be getting a call one way or another.

So I guess the question is, is the homeowner required to follow the NEC when purchasing and connecting a generator to the inlet?

No, Joe Homeowner is not going to go out and buy an 875 page Code book, read it and make the right decision. He's going to a big box store and Harry Home Depot is going to sell him a bill of goods that he thinks he just got a great deal on.

And since a permit isn't required for that,

But it is for the power inlet box and xfer switch.

does the AHJ have any jurisdiction over what the homeowner does? So, would any of this be enforceable at all?

Possibly. I've worked in towns where inspectors ride around and if they see your work van will knock on the door and ask what type of work you're doing. I wouldn't put it passed them to knock on somewone's door during a power outage and see what type of generator they're using and site them for a violation if there is one.

 

[Vector]

If manufacturers start making portables like the ones JWElectric pointed out or if inspectors start finding reasons to fail installations where these type portable generators are being installed, manufacturers will stop making them. As has been mentioned, as long as there is a demand for these producte they'll manufactured.

Portable generators don't get installed. How could an inspector demand or fail anything?

a) Are the interlock kits you've used been UL listed by the manufacturer of the panel you've used them on;

That seems like it would be a completely different discussion, no? Start a thread, I'll meet you there.

b) You obviously haven't run across an inspector that wants to see the unit actually work.

He has no reason to see it work. What the customer does with the inlet is none of my concern nor is it part of the installation. The inspector asking to see the generator plugged in and working is like an inspector asking to see a TV plugged into a receptacle and working.

AHH, but it is !!!

No, it is not.

Not good enough. What if the buy the wrong unit, got an electric shock plugging in the cord, can't start the unit you recommended, etc. You'll be getting a call one way or another.

Again, that is none of my concern or liability. Just like I have no control over what someone plugs into a general use receptacle.

But it is for the power inlet box and xfer switch.

Yes, and that is all that I install. The generator is speced, purchased, and installed by the customer at their own discretion and has nothing to do with my permit or installation.

Possibly. I've worked in towns where inspectors ride around and if they see your work van will knock on the door and ask what type of work you're doing. I wouldn't put it passed them to knock on somewone's door during a power outage and see what type of generator they're using and site them for a violation if there is one.

Inspectors have no jurisdiction in NJ to enter or search private property. I'd also like to hear about any violation given for something that doesn't require a permit.

If the 2017 NEC has a requirement that TV's have a timer to shut them off after 5 hours (don't put it past them ) can NJ electrical inspectors come in and check your televisions and fine you if you have an "illegal" model?

 

[goldstar]

Portable generators don't get installed. How could an inspector demand or fail anything?

Sorry, my mis-use of words. Didn't mean to lead you in the wrong direction. It's not the generator that's being installed but the power inlet and xfer switch.

That seems like it would be a completely different discussion, no? Start a thread, I'll meet you there.

No thanks. I was just checking. That's been beat to death here.

He has no reason to see it work. What the customer does with the inlet is none of my concern nor is it part of the installation. The inspector asking to see the generator plugged in and working is like an inspector asking to see a TV plugged into a receptacle and working.

I agree. You obviously haven't run into the south ends of north-bound horses I have.

Inspectors have no jurisdiction in NJ to enter or search private property.

I suppose you're right. However, I've been in a certain municipality on service calls when an inspector knocked on the door and asked the HO if I was there doing an installation without a permit.

 

[Vector]

I suppose you're right. However, I've been in a certain municipality on service calls when an inspector knocked on the door and asked the HO if I was there doing an installation without a permit.

I don't doubt it for a second, but the homeowner doesn't have to answer them and they have no right to come in and look. And they certainly don't have any right to cite a violation based on a portable generator being used not having GFCI protection if manufactured after a certain date.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If the rule also fostered a change in the Ul listing of the equipment then it would need to comply to be a listed generator. I'm not saying that the listing requirements have changed but I thought that this NEC change was generated in concert with Ul.

It was, but what would require the manufacturer to get their generator listed?

 

[GoldDigger]

It was, but what would require the manufacturer to get their generator listed?

+1 listing also applies to the device at the time it left the factory, i.e. when it was manufactured.

 

[jwelectric]

When connecting a generator of any kind to a home an Article 702 installation is being made.

As a code enforcement official I will see that 702 power plant or no inspection.

 

[Vector]

When connecting a generator of any kind to a home an Article 702 installation is being made.

As a code enforcement official I will see that 702 power plant or no inspection.

Then I would call the DCA and they would put you in your place.

Or, if a contractor was going to allow you to intimidate them and answer your silly demand, they could just bring there own generator for the inspection- which proves how silly it is.

I've installed portable generator connections for people who plan on using two different generators, a large one for heat and full activity and a small inverter based generator for basics at night. I wonder what you do now, since its possible that the second one doesn't comply with the NEC. What if they don't tell you about it? I think you should do a monthly inspection of their garage, just to be sure.

I have customers who had me install a connection right after Sandy, but then got cheap and never bought the generator when they finally became available. I guess if you were the inspector they would still have an open permit, huh?

 

[jwelectric]

In NJ things are done a little different than in NC. Here in NC a 702 installation must be complete in order to get an inspection.

 

[kwired]

In NJ things are done a little different than in NC. Here in NC a 702 installation must be complete in order to get an inspection.

What is the code violation in having a connection but no generator on site?

I can think of many installations I have been involved with that have a place to connect a generator but no specific portable intended to connect to it. Have seen livestock facilities that have a place to connect, the usual generator that will connect these is a service truck mounted welder/generator unit. Who knows which truck will be brought there if a generator is needed, may not even be one currently owned. Same thing with some remote communications sites, they may have a UPS there to ride through short duration outages but if there is going to be a long duration outage, there is not necessarily any specific generator for any particular site that is sitting there waiting for the opportunity to be connected.

 

[jwelectric]

I was commenting on Mike's information in post #3 and his snarky retort in post #5. As I see it, required or not by the NEC, manufacturers are not including GFCI protection in every 15 KW generator made after 1.1.11. I was responding to that point alone and asking if there is a reason for the non-compliance.

I did not mean to sound so testy with my remark so please forgive my shortcomings.

There are many states that do not require equipment to be listed in order to be installed but there are many states like NC that does require equipment connected to the premises wiring system to be tested by a third party therefore we have both listed and non-listed equipment available on the market.

There is a misconception that all one has to do is to install an inlet for a generator and call the inspector. The theory is that one cannot control what a homeowner plugs into their system. With a little though on this matter one can discern that the generator is not being plugged to the house but instead the house if being plugged to the generator in which case in states that require a third party listing the generator must be present before an inspection.

FTCN was in the White Book before the requirement for receptacles was mentioned in the NEC. In the 2014 cycle Article 445 will address the issue of receptacles on stand-alone generators which will put all this to rest.

A 240 volt GFCI device needs neither the neutral nor an equipment grounding conductor but seeks an unbalance between the two hot conductors.

If one would only stop to think the rules outlined for outside receptacle apply to any receptacle installed outside. Unless the generator is being used on the inside the receptacles must comply with the NEC.

If the generator is being used as a 590 installation then it will not be connected to the premises wiring system and a cord will be installed for each appliance being used at the time.

Yes there are devices on the market that are listed so a gas furnace or a well can be connected by cord and plug to a stand-alone generator.

 

[jwelectric]

What is the code violation in having a connection but no generator on site?

I can think of many installations I have been involved with that have a place to connect a generator but no specific portable intended to connect to it. Have seen livestock facilities that have a place to connect, the usual generator that will connect these is a service truck mounted welder/generator unit. Who knows which truck will be brought there if a generator is needed, may not even be one currently owned. Same thing with some remote communications sites, they may have a UPS there to ride through short duration outages but if there is going to be a long duration outage, there is not necessarily any specific generator for any particular site that is sitting there waiting for the opportunity to be connected.

You will find the answer to your question in the laws and admin of your state. Here in NC it must be listed in order to be used and how will I know as an inspector if the generator is listed unless it is present for me to see?

 

[Vector]

In NJ things are done a little different than in NC. Here in NC a 702 installation must be complete in order to get an inspection.

Can you please cite this NC requirement?

I have a feeling that it's just your own personal opinion.

I've done some research here and I believe it was you that also seemed to have a personal vendetta against interlock kits, so this issue would make sense too...

 

[Vector]

If one would only stop to think the rules outlined for outside receptacle apply to any receptacle installed outside. Unless the generator is being used on the inside the receptacles must comply with the NEC.

A generator isn't installed. It's a device used by the homeowner who isn't bound to pull a permit, have an inspection, or follow the NEC in order to use it.

 

[kwired]

You will find the answer to your question in the laws and admin of your state. Here in NC it must be listed in order to be used and how will I know as an inspector if the generator is listed unless it is present for me to see?

Well I know the laws of my state pretty well that would effect this - and it comes down to what is printed in the NEC, any other laws do not effect the installation methods any just whether or not the installation requires a permit and inspection.

That said, in your area apparently if you are going to have a "hookup" for a portable generator you must have a generator to connect to it or it is not a complete installation, and it can not be signed off on the permit as finished until you have a generator. I can see this being something that is not that hard to comply with for a typical residential installation as many will not want to have a "hookup" installed if they have no generator to connect to it. But in some of my examples of non dwelling related installations I gave that is not always going to be the case. There may not even be a generator intended to use at the site until the time comes to need one. I promise you if they have a few hundred or thousand head of hogs that need ventilation, food and water they are not going to wait for you to come inspect before connecting that generator. (OK a few thousand probably has a permanently installed generator, but a few hundred head maybe is backed up with a portable).

Like I said, for some of the places I have been involved with the portable generator is mounted on a truck and is also a portable welder and is used daily for maintenance across many site locations. Which truck will be brought out when the need arises is like a crapshoot. If it is needed far enough down the road, the generator to be used may not even be purchased yet. Do they need you to come inspect the new generator on the new service truck every time they purchase one?

 

[Vector]

I can see this being something that is not that hard to comply with for a typical residential installation as many will not want to have a "hookup" installed if they have no generator to connect to it.

In my experience, a very large portion of portable generator connections are contracted right after a "natural occurrence" that kills the power for a day or more. This is the same exact time that finding a portable generator to purchase becomes a very hard task.

I keep a stock of inlets, transfer panels, and a few various interlock kits so that I can get the work done immediately, then I leave it up to the homeowner to buy the generator when they can.

If I had an inspector demanding to see a non-existant generator before he signed off on an inspection that has nothing to do with a generator*, I would either A) call the DCA or B) (if not wanting to make an enemy) I would bring my own generator just for the inspection.

* Does a generator have to be connected to the inlet? What about a vehicle with an inverter? A portable bank of batteries? A portable solar panel? A stationary bike attached to an alternator?

 

[goldstar]

He has no reason to see it work. What the customer does with the inlet is none of my concern nor is it part of the installation. The inspector asking to see the generator plugged in and working is like an inspector asking to see a TV plugged into a receptacle and working.

Sorry V, I've been thinking about this since my last post and while there may not be a specific NEC section that addresses whether an inspector should or should not witness the generator functioning, just as a CYA I believe he should. Here's my rationing :

a) In the case of an AC unit or a TV, all the inspector is required to do is make sure you've installed the wiring in accordance with the NEC. In these cases you're drawing power from a utility source. So, if the device or appliance doesn't work the onus is solely on you as the EC to make sure it does.

b) When a POCO initially connects power to a premise, that premise has already been inspected for the rough and gets a final and functional inspection by the electrical inspector. The POCO is off the hook once the power is brought to the meter enclosure but the EI has to go inside and test GFI receptacles, lighting, etc. even if it's only random or spot checks.

c) In the case of a generator (portable or optional standby stationary) you're interrupting the utility source and supplying power to a premise. I could be 100% wrong on this but IMHO, both you as the EC and the inspector have an obligation (be it legal or moral) to make sure the unit functions properly.

My apologies to the OP for getting off topic.

 

[infinity]

If I had an inspector demanding to see a non-existant generator before he signed off on an inspection that has nothing to do with a generator*, I would either A) call the DCA or B) (if not wanting to make an enemy) I would bring my own generator just for the inspection.

* Does a generator have to be connected to the inlet? What about a vehicle with an inverter? A portable bank of batteries? A portable solar panel? A stationary bike attached to an alternator?

The argument seems to be where does the NEC end, in Mike's case it's at the generator, in Vector's case it's at the inlet. I would lean towards it ending at the inlet but would raise the question about the generator that will eventually be plugged into the inlet. Does that generator need to have the frame bonding jumper removed before it can be connected to the premise wiring? Would the inspector need to look at that or would that fall squarely on the shoulders of the homeowner?

 

[Vector]

Sorry V, I've been thinking about this since my last post and while there may not be a specific NEC section that addresses whether an inspector should or should not witness the generator functioning, just as a CYA I believe he should.

It's not my job or your job to help the inspector cover his *ss.

c) In the case of a generator (portable or optional standby stationary) you're interrupting the utility source and supplying power to a premise. I could be 100% wrong on this but IMHO, both you as the EC and the inspector have an obligation (be it legal or moral) to make sure the unit functions properly.

Moral obligations* have nothing to do with this. And there is no legal obligation.

My own personal moral obligation is taken care of in the document that I give to all my customers explaining how they need a generator with an L14-30R or L14-20R receptacle and how they need to buy a big enough generator to power what they intend to use during an outage. I have received many calls from customers while at the store asking if a particular generator that they found on sale would be good for them. I feel that I have done my duty as a contractor, and many times go above and beyond.

to make sure the unit functions properly

What unit? That's like saying the EC and inspector have an obligation to make sure that a TV the customer uses works correctly.

The EC and the inspector have nothing to do with whatever the homeowner connects to the inlet.

Following your logic, the homeowner should call for a reinspection if he purchases a new generator. I think we could both agree that is not necessary.