Power factor correction experiment

[Besoeker]

Please refer to post #74

Let's recap a bit with a couple of your posts:
Post #64
The difficulty I had was you first depicted voltage wave to look like almost sine wave in your post #22 and later showed it to be distorted in post #25.What about the incoming voltage wave prior to connection of capacitor?

Post #69
Please represent the above incoming voltage wave to the same time scale you represented the voltage wave in post #25.

You still don't teem to be able to comprehend that they are the SAME voltage.
That blows my mind.

Only recently power quality issues are gaining momentum in India.I am in charge of Electromechanical services in telephone exchanges for which we are planning to conduct power quality study.Once it is completed,I shall submit the results.

I wish you luck with the study.
Hopefully you will learn something from it.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

QUOTE=Besoeker;1349383]Let's recap a bit with a couple of your posts:
Post #64
The difficulty I had was you first depicted voltage wave to look like almost sine wave in your post #22 and later showed it to be distorted in post #25.What about the incoming voltage wave prior to connection of capacitor?

Post #69
Please represent the above incoming voltage wave to the same time scale you represented the voltage wave in post #25.

You still don't teem to be able to comprehend that they are the SAME voltage.
That blows my mind.[/QUOTE]
You display amazing patience.My salutations to you.I just wanted to know one thing from you: did the connection of capacitor distort the incoming voltage or not?

I wish you luck with the study.
Hopefully you will learn something from it.

Thanks.

 

[Besoeker]

I am trying to get a consistent picture. Please refer to the first reply at post #71.The implication is that there is no voltage distortion caused by capacitor,
The voltages referred to are both without the capacitor connected:
Past #22

I took voltage and current without the magic device connected

Post #25

First I look one cycle out of the five previously displayed:

Same waveform. As I commented at the time, you can clearly see the distortion if you are accustomed to looking at such things.

although it takes distorted current.

The reason the capacitor takes distorted current is because there is already harmonic distortion on the supply.

But once in resonance,it is bound to cause voltage distortion.

Do you really think a 30uF capacitor is going to have anything approaching a significant effect on a 1,500 kVA supply?

But Besoeker is telling it is the SAME voltage.

At the risk of repeating it ad nauseum, the voltages referred to are both without the capacitor connected

 

[iwire]

At the risk of repeating it ad nauseum, the voltages referred to are both without the capacitor connected

So let me see if I get this straight.

• You had a single voltage source
• You recorded the supply characteristics of this source
• You then connected the capacitor to that same source
• You then recorded the new characteristics of the circuit

It can't be that simple or I am sure T.M.Haja Sahib would have understood it.:roll:

 

[Besoeker]

The difficulty I had was you first depicted voltage wave to look like almost sine wave in your post #22 and later showed it to be distorted in post #25.

The distortion is evident on both timescales if you are accustomed to dealing with this but maybe the 20ms slice of time exctracted from the 100ms maybe makes it clearer.

What about the incoming voltage wave prior to connection of capacitor?

That was the incoming voltage prior to the capacitor. The distortion is unrelated to the connection of the capacitors.

I just wanted to know one thing from you: did the connection of capacitor distort the incoming voltage or not?

That wasn't part of my brief and I didn't specifically check it but I would think not or at least to any significant extent.See my previous post. I might have some waveforms saved that could possibly give a qualitative picture but they are not date or time stamped so I'm not sure how valid they would be for comparison purposes. I'm sure you are aware, or certainly will find out in your forthcoming study, that the quality of the supply varies with time of day, day of the week, and season.

 

[Besoeker]

So let me see if I git this straight.

• You had a single voltage source
• You recorded the supply characteristics of this source
• You then connected the capacitor to that same source
• You then recorded the new characteristics of the circuit

It can't be that simple or I am sure T.M.Haja Sahib would have understood it.:roll:

Pretty much spot on.
It was above and beyond what I had asked to do. But some of the data piqued my interest enough to check it out a bit further.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

I am trying to get a consistent picture. Please refer to the first reply at post #71.The implication is that there is no voltage distortion caused by capacitor,
The voltages referred to are both without the capacitor connected:
Past #22


Post #25

Same waveform. As I commented at the time, you can clearly see the distortion if you are accustomed to looking at such things.



The reason the capacitor takes distorted current is because there is already harmonic distortion on the supply.


Do you really think a 30uF capacitor is going to have anything approaching a significant effect on a 1,500 kVA supply?




At the risk of repeating it ad nauseum, the voltages referred to are both without the capacitor connected

Finally,now I hope that you agree that there is danger to other equipments due to connection of a suitable size PFC capacitor in a residence,because there is no voltage distortion caused by it.As for the resonance,we both know how it can be avoided.Shall we now move on to post #70?

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

So let me see if I get this straight.

• You had a single voltage source
• You recorded the supply characteristics of this source
• You then connected the capacitor to that same source
• You then recorded the new characteristics of the circuit

It can't be that simple or I am sure T.M.Haja Sahib would have understood it.:roll:

Thanks, anyway, for your simplification process despite it has already been resolved.Please take some action on post#87 NOW.

 

[iwire]

Thanks, anyway, for your simplification process

Glad I could help. :thumbsup:

Please take some action on post#87 NOW

Again with the demands, well seeing as you were not specific what action would you like me to take?

I will happily delete post 87 if that is what you want.

 

[Besoeker]

Finally,now I hope that you agree that there is danger to other equipments due to connection of a suitable size PFC capacitor in a residence,because there is no voltage distortion caused by it.

That doesn't actually seem to make sense.
And somewhat contradicts your post #74.

But once in resonance,it is bound to cause voltage distortion.

As for the resonance,we both know how it can be avoided.

But do the punters who are getting ripped off by this scam?
Anyway, my simple means of avoiding the resonance would be not to buy or install it in the first place.

Shall we now move on to post #70?

I can't see what you are getting at in #70. It seems a bit vague. And how are the increased and decreased voltages being produced?

 

[jdcpe17]

Not me or anyone I know. I think the US has a limitation for residential 120/240 200 amps or less, which is really common here.

i just want to say i am thoroughly enjoying this thread. I hope no one gets heated in their rebutals, you are all far more versed than I. I greatly appreciate the dialogue.

about USA residential fault, normally 22k or less for 120/240, 480v/277 normally RATED for 65k. A quick call to the local utility with an address is normally all it takes to get a figure.

 

[Besoeker]

Although Besoeker spells some words funny. (jk Mr.B)

But usually correctly..........

A little off topic tale.
Mods, be tolerant.
When I started secondary school aged about 11, we had to write an essay every week to be handed in on Monday morning to the English* teacher.
For me, that was never easy. Making up good fairy tales just wasn't my thing.
The essays were marked for content, grammar.........and spelling.
Four or more incorrect spellings got you "the belt". This was a stroke or two across the outstretched hands with a thick leather strap. I was on the receiving end - once.
It gets your attention.
Whether it is the right way to teach might be debated and it certainly wouldn't be considered acceptable now.
All I can say is that my spelling got better at a stroke.

 

[jumper]

But usually correctly..........

A little off topic tale.
Mods, be tolerant.
When I started secondary school aged about 11, we had to write an essay every week to be handed in on Monday morning to the English* teacher.
For me, that was never easy. Making up good fairy tales just wasn't my thing.
The essays were marked for content, grammar.........and spelling.
Four or more incorrect spellings got you "the belt". This was a stroke or two across the outstretched hands with a thick leather strap. I was on the receiving end - once.
It gets your attention.
Whether it is the right way to teach might be debated and it certainly wouldn't be considered acceptable now.
All I can say is that my spelling got better at a stroke.

I would have been beaten senseless, grammar and spelling has always been a weak point for me.

College composition and English courses wrecked my GPA. I blew a 4.0. It happens.

Back on topic: What meter are you using? Your readings are impressive.

Are UK residential customers charged for PF?

Are all UK residences derived from a 3 phase source?

 

[SAC]

I shall provide independent source but in the mean time tell me why you got the impression I provide nothing?

As much as I'm trying to stay away from what looks like classic "trolling" on your part - I'll bite. Please point to a post of yours that includes DATA AND ANALYSIS PROVIDED BY YOURSELF that is put forth in some QUANTIFIABLE manner such that it may further some SCIENTIFICALLY VERIFIABLE position (I add that emphasis as so far I haven't seen it in any of your posts). Simply "calling out" others on what they have presented doesn't meet that requirement. If you don't understand the language in quotes to this point, please "google" them. Also, an "independent source" is not at all relevant in this respect unless you can directly tie it to the the specific points that you have made up until this point.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

As much as I'm trying to stay away from what looks like classic "trolling" on your part - I'll bite. Please point to a post of yours that includes DATA AND ANALYSIS PROVIDED BY YOURSELF that is put forth in some QUANTIFIABLE manner such that it may further some SCIENTIFICALLY VERIFIABLE position (I add that emphasis as so far I haven't seen it in any of your posts). Simply "calling out" others on what they have presented doesn't meet that requirement. If you don't understand the language in quotes to this point, please "google" them. Also, an "independent source" is not at all relevant in this respect unless you can directly tie it to the the specific points that you have made up until this point.

I am afraid you are mistaken.I did not take any side.My aim is to question,clarify and even to object so that the thread takes a specific direction.So would you like to confer me the status of MANAGER of this thread?

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

Again with the demands,

That was a request and not demand and my heart breaks at your wrong interpretation.:weeping:

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

That doesn't actually seem to make sense.
And somewhat contradicts your post #74.

There was a typographical error.Does ''Finally,now I hope that you agree that there is NO danger to other equipments due to connection of a suitable size PFC capacitor in a residence,because there is not much voltage distortion caused by it'' make sense to you?

But do the punters who are getting ripped off by this scam?
Anyway, my simple means of avoiding the resonance would be not to buy or install it in the first place.

I can't see what you are getting at in #70. It seems a bit vague. And how are the increased and decreased voltages being produced?

We are not going to purchase any thing from the scam.
The increased and decreased voltages are produced, when a suitable size capacitor is connected or not connected across the motor terminals respectively.Because the capacitor eliminates the reactive component of the load current of the pump motor in the lines connecting to the motor,this voltage effect is produced.

 

[SAC]

I am afraid you are mistaken.I did not take any side.My aim is to question,clarify and even to object so that the thread takes a specific direction.So would you like to confer me the status of MANAGER of this thread?

If what you have been doing is to exemplify "management", it certainly does so for the type of management that cripples an engineering organization's effectiveness. I have seen this before - competent engineers "fetching rocks" in time wasting exercises to educate the management that doesn't possess the willpower or skills to comprehend. They don't posses the technical expertise to add anything to the conversation - instead simply being "nay-sayers" to whatever information they are offered. Thanks for the succinct example - I shall refer to this thread for this clearly illustrative purpose!

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

If what you have been doing is to exemplify "management", it certainly does so for the type of management that cripples an engineering organization's effectiveness. I have seen this before - competent engineers "fetching rocks" in time wasting exercises to educate the management that doesn't possess the willpower or skills to comprehend. They don't posses the technical expertise to add anything to the conversation - instead simply being "nay-sayers" to whatever information they are offered. Thanks for the succinct example - I shall refer to this thread for this clearly illustrative purpose!

You have to state any real life example to provide credibility to your statement.If the management cripples the Engineering organisation,the entire organisation fails in the long run.You just give one example,where this happened.
I do not believe people in the Engineering organisation can be that foolish.

 

[topgone]

This has gone long enough and it's not worth reading anymore. Please stand down and make your final arguments.