'Proof' that AFCI devices really locate arcs.

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If you really want to go down the path of protecting everything there’s a system that was used in the UK when I started in the trade.

“Earth proving units”. It needed an extra pin in every plug and socket along with a transformer, rectifier, two relays and a contactor for every socket. They were a PITA!

It was only used in industrial situations and fell out of favour due to the availability of high sensitivity RCD’s
 
Some really interesting comments recently posted. I like the ones where we do not need any such testing or devices because of the code and we do the right thing.

Ok I agree with over regulation.
However how do we deal with the sloppy workmanship or the occasional accidental nail in the wire. I have seen gun nails hit a nail plate and protect the wire then to have the framer just pound it the rest of the way nailing sheer.

How do we do this.

My first suggestion is bring back the ground fault feature of AFCI
 
Sierrasparky said:
Some really interesting comments recently posted. I like the ones where we do not need any such testing or devices because of the code and we do the right thing.

Ok I agree with over regulation.
However how do we deal with the sloppy workmanship or the occasional accidental nail in the wire. I have seen gun nails hit a nail plate and protect the wire then to have the framer just pound it the rest of the way nailing sheer.

How do we do this.

My first suggestion is bring back the ground fault feature of AFCI
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If you come up with an answer to that one let the rest of the world know please.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Some really interesting comments recently posted. I like the ones where we do not need any such testing or devices because of the code and we do the right thing.

Ok I agree with over regulation.
However how do we deal with the sloppy workmanship or the occasional accidental nail in the wire. I have seen gun nails hit a nail plate and protect the wire then to have the framer just pound it the rest of the way nailing sheer.

How do we do this.

My first suggestion is bring back the ground fault feature of AFCI
Click to expand...

My vote is GFCI/GFP. :thumbsup: Nearly every damaged conductor scenario and code violation wiring error causes an imbalance which a GFCI detects.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Some really interesting comments recently posted. I like the ones where we do not need any such testing or devices because of the code and we do the right thing.

Ok I agree with over regulation.
However how do we deal with the sloppy workmanship or the occasional accidental nail in the wire. I have seen gun nails hit a nail plate and protect the wire then to have the framer just pound it the rest of the way nailing sheer.

How do we do this.

My first suggestion is bring back the ground fault feature of AFCI
Click to expand...



My first suggestion ... would be to Bring back the " Edison Fuse " ... Far better OCP and totally reliable for pennies . No failed to trip CB , a fuse always woks .

I do not go for " selling the AFCI monstrosity " by incorporating proven GFCI and GFPE teck into the AFCI , therefor reaching more Locos in the dwelling , and making it harder to get the AFCI out of the NEC .

I do not believe that we can or should try to , " bad workmanship proof the installation ' , in electrical construction .

A better way to improve the margin for safety in the dwelling is to provide for a 20A circuit in each room . Therefor eliminating the use of extension cords when people make bedrooms and chop up every bedroom and room into living quarter's for several people . Plenty of power for portable heaters , hairdryers , small refridg. ect . I always had a small refridg. in my bedroom .


Customer gets more bang out of their Electrical Construction Dollar .


Don
 
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donaldelectrician said:
My first suggestion ... would be to Bring back the " Edison Fuse " ... Far better OCP and totally reliable for pennies . No failed to trip CB , a fuse always woks .

I do not go for " selling the AFCI monstrosity " by incorporating proven GFCI and GFPE teck into the AFCI , therefor reaching more Locos in the dwelling , and making it harder to get the AFCI out of the NEC .

I do not believe that we can or should try to , " bad workmanship proof the installation ' , in electrical construction .

A better way to improve the margin for safety in the dwelling is to provide for a 20A circuit in each room . Therefor eliminating the use of extension cords when people make bedrooms and chop up every bedroom and room into living quarter's for several people . Plenty of power for portable heaters , hairdryers , small refridg. ect . I always had a small refridg. in my bedroom .


Customer gets more bang out of their Electrical Construction Dollar .


Don
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I politely disagree. There is next to no portable equipment found in a dwelling that pulls more then 12 amps. And if wiring by the code minimum 3va per foot in makes no difference. Increasing in the va per foot to 4 or 5 in cold climates is probably a better idea, but in so far 15 amp circuits do fine. I am in the school of thought that all 120 volt receptacle circuits in a dwelling can get away with being 15 amps.
 
mbrooke said:
I politely disagree. There is next to no portable equipment found in a dwelling that pulls more then 12 amps. And if wiring by the code minimum 3va per foot in makes no difference. Increasing in the va per foot to 4 or 5 in cold climates is probably a better idea, but in so far 15 amp circuits do fine. I am in the school of thought that all 120 volt receptacle circuits in a dwelling can get away with being 15 amps.
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I have always been a 12AWG 20A recpt. man .

We have a huge problem in the cities where rents have gone through the roof ... SF one of the worst . The tenets divide up every single bedroom into 2 or more couples and living rooms also .




Don
 
donaldelectrician said:
I have always been a 12AWG 20A recpt. man .

We have a huge problem in the cities where rents have gone through the roof ... SF one of the worst . The tenets divide up every single bedroom into 2 or more couples and living rooms also .




Don
Click to expand...


Couldn't adding more circuits per foot do the same? Id personally go with 14/3 over 12-2, more power less finger hurt. :thumbsup:
 
donaldelectrician said:
I hear ya . I like the 20A so it can be loaded . Women will not do without their portable heaters ... I have found





Don.
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mbrooke said:
but 2 circuits can provide more then one :D
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Ya know that with newer Flat panel Tv's, lower consumption PC, LED lights, I think load on circuits are going down.
The only thing that will cause a overload in a typical bedroom is a portable heater.
That said the modern dwelling is pretty well protected from overloading as bathrooms require 20 amp, Kitchens have far more circuits than before.

It is the old inventory of dwellings that are problematic. This is not going to be solved by the AFCI. Certainly not by the AFCI receptacle. IMHO.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Ya know that with newer Flat panel Tv's, lower consumption PC, LED lights, I think load on circuits are going down.
The only thing that will cause a overload in a typical bedroom is a portable heater.
That said the modern dwelling is pretty well protected from overloading as bathrooms require 20 amp, Kitchens have far more circuits than before.

It is the old inventory of dwellings that are problematic. This is not going to be solved by the AFCI. Certainly not by the AFCI receptacle. IMHO.
Click to expand...

One of the greatest misconceptions are that overloaded circuits lead to fire. In order to reach dangerous temperatures in home wiring the breaker must have failed and the person has to deliberately be trying to burn down a home. The only real risk from overloading is that the probability of a glowing connection showing up faster at a poor splice or termination, but that can happen even at a few amps, and will take the form of heating rather than an arc. But in any case it doesn't stop funded propaganda from spreading disinformation. Notice the iron toward the end setting the board ablaze. Is that really an arc?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLN4apTCld0
 
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