raised cover on 1900 box

[Smart $]

I'm glad to see this thread has taken a turn to the lighter side of postings. :thumbsup:

 

[jusme123]

I'm glad to see this thread has taken a turn to the lighter side of postings. :thumbsup:

yea, now I know I can put 6 extension rings on a flush mounted 4x4 box, in the middle of a busy office hallway, than use an 1 1/2" raised mud ring for my switch......and call it compliant:lol:

 

[iwire]

yea, now I know I can put 6 extension rings on a flush mounted 4x4 box, in the middle of a busy office hallway, than use an 1 1/2" raised mud ring for my switch......and call it compliant:lol:

The important thing to remember is you can't call it non compliant.

 

[aleuns]

As a final follow up to the original question, as best I can tell, the OSHA inspector is loosely referring back to something that Smart $ mentioned as being substantially closed. We were using a 1900 box with both 1/2" and 3/4" stamped knockouts (we refer to them as combo boxes). All knock outs were in place. She even mentioned the small 1/8" pre-stamped holes as being a potential danger. Not sure where this all is coming from but I just had another customer ask me the same thing about 4 x 4 boxes and raised covers. That customer has no knowledge about this previous incident and said that their corporate safety group brought it up. I don't know what is going on but from now on, we are going to put all surface mount receptacles in a bell box.

 

[al hildenbrand]

As a final follow up to the original question, as best I can tell, the OSHA inspector is loosely referring back to something that Smart $ mentioned as being substantially closed. We were using a 1900 box with both 1/2" and 3/4" stamped knockouts (we refer to them as combo boxes). All knock outs were in place. She even mentioned the small 1/8" pre-stamped holes as being a potential danger. Not sure where this all is coming from but I just had another customer ask me the same thing about 4 x 4 boxes and raised covers. That customer has no knowledge about this previous incident and said that their corporate safety group brought it up. I don't know what is going on but from now on, we are going to put all surface mount receptacles in a bell box.

Welcome back to your thread.

An "OSHA audit" and a "corporate safety group" hint at a setting. Some how I suspect you are surface mounting receptacles somewhere other than in a warehouse.

Can you give us any hints as to the setting that is creating this level (or these levels) of safety concern?

 

[steve66]

So I can't use a mudring in the side of a kitchen cabinet, as it is not a finished wall surface?

Cheers, Wayne

Not Al... but if you go by listing documentation, you would be non-compliant.

Regarding this issue, some common sense discretionary measures go a long way... but as we can see, common sense can be quite uncommon at times.

So a wall plate over a device flush mounted in a cabinet would be a violation because its not a wall? And a wall plate on any surface mounted box would be a violation (again - the plate isn't on a wall)?

 

[GoldDigger]

I think the flush mounting is more important than what it is flush with.
The supported mechanical fit and sealing both depend on a flush installation of the plate itself, whatever else it may be attached to.

 

[JFletcher]

As a final follow up to the original question, as best I can tell, the OSHA inspector is loosely referring back to something that Smart $ mentioned as being substantially closed. We were using a 1900 box with both 1/2" and 3/4" stamped knockouts (we refer to them as combo boxes). All knock outs were in place. She even mentioned the small 1/8" pre-stamped holes as being a potential danger. Not sure where this all is coming from but I just had another customer ask me the same thing about 4 x 4 boxes and raised covers. That customer has no knowledge about this previous incident and said that their corporate safety group brought it up. I don't know what is going on but from now on, we are going to put all surface mount receptacles in a bell box.

Thanks for the follow-up. So, the issue was with the small openings on the KOs, and not with the mudrings? The only 4sq boxes Ive seen with slits in the KOs have MC cable clamps built in.

I could see also that if subject to physical damage, a 1/2" KO could get pushed inward, touching the switch/receptacle terminals... then again, a mudring could get pushed off if hit hard enough at the right angle whereas a RS cover, you'd have to physically break the screws.

I'd still like to know which OSHA regs are coming into play here. A metal box with no missing KOs is "substantially closed" enough to have a 2 hour fire rating. Safety wise, I'd want a code reference. I did find this:

http://belleville.ca/images/uploads/16132-OUTLET_BOXES,_CONDUIT_BOXES_AND_FITTINGS.pdf

2.2.2 looks like you can use surface mounted 1900 boxes for conduit, but 2.5.1 says you need a FS box for surface mounted wiring (MC cable).

 

[al hildenbrand]

Thanks for the follow-up. So, the issue was with the small openings on the KOs, and not with the mudrings?

Aleuns has only asked about raised covers on jboxes. The discussion above about mudrings was a thread-jack and not part of the OP question.

I hope Aleuns will tell us a little about the environment that this "safety condemnation" of raised covers on 1900 boxes is happening in. I, for one, find this "safety judgement" as inexplicable.

 

[JFletcher]

Aleuns has only asked about raised covers on jboxes. The discussion above about mudrings was a thread-jack and not part of the OP question.

I hope Aleuns will tell us a little about the environment that this "safety condemnation" of raised covers on 1900 boxes is happening in. I, for one, find this "safety judgement" as inexplicable.

From the link I read and posted above, it appears 1900 boxes cannot be surface mounted except for conduit - using MC cable requires a FS/bell box. Looks like Ontario building code, no idea if we have a similar code here:

2.2 SHEET STEEL OUTLET BOXES

.2 Electro-galvanized steel utility boxes for outlets connected to surface-mounted
EMT conduit, minimum size 4" x 2-1/8" x 1-7/8" (102 x 54 x 48 mm).

2.5 CONDUIT BOXES
.1 Cast FS or FD feraloy boxes with factory-threaded hubs and mounting feet for
surface wiring of equipment switches and receptacle.

If the inspector is citing this, and there is no OSHA regulation, istm the course of action would be to politely inform her the building is not in Ontario.

eta: OP never stated if the boxes were cabled with MC or had conduit running to them, but his last post indicated openings on the KOs - only 1900 boxes with internal MC cable clamps have those.

 

[iwire]

From the link I read and posted above, it appears 1900 boxes cannot be surface mounted except for conduit - using MC cable requires a FS/bell box.

I think you have to be mistaken.

It would be no lie to say the company I work for uses thousands of 4" sq boxes with MC or NM every year.

 

[steve66]

From the link I read and posted above, it appears 1900 boxes cannot be surface mounted except for conduit - using MC cable requires a FS/bell box. Looks like Ontario building code, no idea if we have a similar code here:

You are quoting a spec some engineer wrote for a specific project. Its what he (or she) wanted on that project, but it doesn't mean its a code requirement.

 

[JFletcher]

iwire and steve, I agree. The OP was wondering where the OSHA inspector was getting her info. In an attempt to figure that out myself, I found that link. I know it's not NEC requirement, and 4 pages of replies from other posters seem to show it's not a building code requirement either. That said, the OSHA inspector is getting her info from somewhere, and that Ontario link shows what the inspector is talking about. Sure it's a spec sheet for a fire hall in Canada, but I'm gonna take a wild stab and say that isnt the first time those specs have been used.

 

[Hendrix]

I received a call this morning from a customer that just went through an OSHA audit. The OSHA inspector has told them that it is a violation to install a raised receptacle cover on a 1900 box. She informed them it was a "listed" violation in the NEC but would not elaborate further and that all of the receptacles would have to be installed in a bell box or FS box.

Anyone else ever heard of this?

WOW. I see millions of violations.hmy: