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petersonra said:
I am pretty sure that 70A is an extract from 70 covering only the stuff in 70 that applies to 1 and 2 family residences. I don't think NFPA does it anymore though. Not sure why they ever did it.
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Possibilities include:
1. To sell more books.
2. To allow jurisdictions to more easily choose NEC for residential and International codes for commercial, or
3. To cite 70A by reference in their residential building code(s).
 
petersonra said:
I am pretty sure that 70A is an extract from 70 covering only the stuff in 70 that applies to 1 and 2 family residences. I don't think NFPA does it anymore though. Not sure why they ever did it.
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That's exactly what it is.

Created for electrical installers, contractors, electricians, inspectors, and builders who specialize in residential wiring, this document is a compilation of electrical provisions for one- and two-family dwellings that have been excerpted from the National Electrical Code®. Provisions have the same numerical designation as they have in the NEC.
 
GoldDigger said:
Possibilities include:
1. To sell more books.
2. To allow jurisdictions to more easily choose NEC for residential and International codes for commercial, or
3. To cite 70A by reference in their residential building code(s).
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I would bet on #1.

if it was #2 or #3 they would have continued the practice.
 
From a publication here titled "State Electrical Act"

RULE NUMBER 18
Adoption of the National Electrical Code
The minimum electrical wiring standard shall be the 2014 National Electrical Code,
National Fire Protection Association Publication Number 70-2014, as adopted in whole or
amended in part by the State Electrical Board which is incorporated herein by reference and
filed with the Secretary of State.

I'm sure if I look hard enough in the state laws there will be an entry that says about the same thing. It (likely) will be updated sometime this year to change it to 2017 NEC, but has to be passed by the state legislature before that will happen.

This means the 2014 NEC is state law for electrical installation standards, if they want to make amendments to what is in NFPA 70, then they must note those in the law books as well. Right now I don't think we have any amendments, but have had some in the past.

The publication I got that from is not the law itself, but is a publication the electrical division puts out for convenience that contains nearly all the rules and regulations that are associated with their department that are in the law books somewhere.
 
again, you missing the point. the NFPA NEC codebook is itself marked as "for reference only"

what reference book the law says it uses means nothing when it comes down to an AHJ making its own determinations. if the nec book was to be taken literally in context of law there would be 10yrs worth of backlog court cases. the AHJ has authority to "interpret" the reference book, as defined by law.

if you dont understand this, then so be it.


Despite the use of the term "national", it is not a federal law. It is typically adopted bystates and municipalities in an effort to standardize their enforcement of safe electrical practices
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in many cases the nec verbiage is very clear, in other parts it is not, thus why the AHJ has room to interpret it any way they like.
 
petersonra said:
that is just plain FALSE. the AHJ is required to use due process just like any other government agency.
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the "AHJ", so what due process? they use the, per law, reference document and interpret it, that's their job. as i mentioned, some of the NEC is clear, some clear as mud.
 
FionaZuppa said:
again, you missing the point. the NFPA NEC codebook is itself marked as "for reference only"

what reference book the law says it uses means nothing when it comes down to an AHJ making its own determinations. if the nec book was to be taken literally in context of law there would be 10yrs worth of backlog court cases. the AHJ has authority to "interpret" the reference book, as defined by law.

if you dont understand this, then so be it.




in many cases the nec verbiage is very clear, in other parts it is not, thus why the AHJ has room to interpret it any way they like.
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And people have the right to challenge that interpretation. Many times either unsuccessfully or they figure it is easier to just comply with what was given then to challenge it, but there can be times you may get them to change something. If nobody ever challenged any rules or regulations we wouldn't have a need for law making processes. We even have public input process to make changes to the NEC, not saying it will be easy to get your desired change though.
 
FionaZuppa said:
the "AHJ", so what due process? they use the, per law, reference document and interpret it, that's their job. as i mentioned, some of the NEC is clear, some clear as mud.
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No one, to my knowledge, has ever voted an AHJ as "God". They are most clearly NOT the final say. Here in NJ at the local level there is always the construction board of appeals. It's a crap shoot, but the AHJ has to live with the decision if it goes against him. The end-around to that is to go to the DCA which licenses all code officials. They can be highly persuasive if you are in the right. So, THAT's the "due process".
 
gadfly56 said:
No one, to my knowledge, has ever voted an AHJ as "God". They are most clearly NOT the final say. Here in NJ at the local level there is always the construction board of appeals. It's a crap shoot, but the AHJ has to live with the decision if it goes against him. The end-around to that is to go to the DCA which licenses all code officials. They can be highly persuasive if you are in the right. So, THAT's the "due process".
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obviously i am not talking about final say so as in SCOTUS. the AHJ is the authority who, under the laws of the state or locale, are empowered to use (NEC, or the back of cracker-jax box) as the reference material. the AHJ's do the best they can, that's their job, etc. there is no law that says the NEC 20xx is the bible of rule, etc. if there is dispute over what an AHJ says they believe their interpretation is, then so be it, it should be challenged. if its gray area the AHJ will likely prevail.
 
FionaZuppa said:
obviously i am not talking about final say so as in SCOTUS. the AHJ is the authority who, under the laws of the state or locale, are empowered to use (NEC, or the back of cracker-jax box) as the reference material. the AHJ's do the best they can, that's their job, etc. there is no law that says the NEC 20xx is the bible of rule, etc. if there is dispute over what an AHJ says they believe their interpretation is, then so be it, it should be challenged. if its gray area the AHJ will likely prevail.
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You keep saying that, and every time it's just as wrong as all the other times you've said it. When a statute incorporates the NEC by reference, it is just as much law as if they had copied every jot and tittle into the body of the statute. See K8MHZ at post #105. Your attitude is bordering on invincible ignorance.
 
gadfly56 said:
You keep saying that, and every time it's just as wrong as all the other times you've said it. When a statute incorporates the NEC by reference, it is just as much law as if they had copied every jot and tittle into the body of the statute. See K8MHZ at post #105. Your attitude is bordering on invincible ignorance.
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what statute says "NEC 2014 will be used as the reference guide for all residential electrical installations" ?? an adoption is not a statute. i dont know of any.

a statute will typically allow the state or offer that power to a locale for state or locale to pick & choose what they want as the std reference, etc. and to boot, i dont know of any criminal laws that describes a crime if the chosen reference is not used.
 
FionaZuppa said:
what statute says "NEC 2014 will be used as the reference guide for all residential electrical installations" ?? an adoption is not a statute. i dont know of any.

a statute will typically allow the state or offer that power to a locale for state or locale to pick & choose what they want as the std reference, etc. and to boot, i dont know of any criminal laws that describes a crime if the chosen reference is not used.
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Did you miss my reply at #100?

"...the Commisioner hereby adopts the model code of the National Fire Protection Association, known as "The National Electrical Code 2014 as the electrical subcode for New Jersey".

Do you see the word "reference" anywhere here? That section 5:23-3.16 is from the New Jersey Administrative Code.
 
gadfly56 said:
Did you miss my reply at #100?

"...the Commisioner hereby adopts the model code of the National Fire Protection Association, known as "The National Electrical Code 2014 as the electrical subcode for New Jersey".

Do you see the word "reference" anywhere here? That section 5:23-3.16 is from the New Jersey Administrative Code.
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is that the exact quote, a copy-&-paste from their stuff?

there is no law that says the NEC is it, the law provides authority to the Commissioner (the correct spelling of the position) to choose what s/he is to adopt.

you can phrase it another way, "by the powers invested in me, i select NEC 2014".

now, whats the criminal code say for using NEC 2011 and not 2014? do i get a fine, go to jail ??
 
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