Recept at the Washing Machine

[kwired]

It doesn?t say that only one can be provided but says that at least one shall be provided. As many as is wanted can be provided and when more than one is provided all must abide by the same rule as the one that shall be provided.

All that are provided must be calculated at the same 1500 volt amperes as outlined in 220.52(B).

If that is the case why not word it the same way as the SABC sections are worded. SABC is worded 'the two or more' they could easily say 'the one or more laundry circuits' if that is the intention.

 

[jwelectric]

If that is the case why not word it the same way as the SABC sections are worded. SABC is worded 'the two or more' they could easily say 'the one or more laundry circuits' if that is the intention.

I believe they did;

In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional​

I would think that this would mean that more than one can be installed and if more than one is installed then all of them have to meet the rule.

 

[ActionDave]

I would think that this would mean that more than one can be installed and if more than one is installed then all of them have to meet the rule.

Where does it say that? I'm trying real hard to see where it says that in the text of the article, but I just don't.

I see where it says you need one and I see where that one can supply no other outlets, but I don't see where it says that one or more can supply no other outlets. Can you show me in the text where it says that?

 

[jwelectric]

Where does it say that? I'm trying real hard to see where it says that in the text of the article, but I just don't.

I see where it says you need one and I see where that one can supply no other outlets, but I don't see where it says that one or more can supply no other outlets. Can you show me in the text where it says that?

210.11 (2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.

This means that the least amount that can be installed is one but if one chooses they can install more

210.23 (A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20- ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).
Exception: The small-appliance branch circuits, laundry branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.

210.23 allows a 20 ampere circuit to supply equipment and lighting outlets but the exception is very clear that laundry circuits (meaning more than one) shall have no other outlets.

220.52 (B) Laundry Circuit Load. A load of not less than 1500 volt-amperes shall be included for each 2-wire laundry branch circuit installed as covered by 210.11(C)(2). This load shall be permitted to be included with the general lighting load and subjected to the demand factors provided in Table 220.42.

Here the word ?each? is implying more than one.

Taking the NEC as a whole instead of blindly looking at one sentence one can clearly see that more than one laundry circuit can be installed and if more than one is installed then each has to follow the same rules that only one would be required to follow.

 

[iwire]

Taking the NEC as a whole instead of blindly looking at one sentence one can clearly see that more than one laundry circuit can be installed and if more than one is installed then each has to follow the same rules that only one would be required to follow.

Mike, always with the attitude.

Well I can clearly see that only one 'laundry area circuit' is required for a single laundry area. Any additional receptacle outlet circuits I might install in there are general purpose branch circuits and would not add to the service calculations.

Now if my home happens to have two distinct laundry areas the NEC will require a laundry area branch circuit in each and that would have to be added to the service calculations.

 

[jwelectric]

Mike, always with the attitude.

Well I can clearly see that only one 'laundry area circuit' is required for a single laundry area. Any additional receptacle outlet circuits I might install in there are general purpose branch circuits and would not add to the service calculations.

Now if my home happens to have two distinct laundry areas the NEC will require a laundry area branch circuit in each and that would have to be added to the service calculations.

With the greatest of respect please take the time to explain why those other code sections were ever written using the verbiage used.

Why would the CMP even entertain the proposal to change the word ?required? to ?covered? in 220.52(B).

It is very clear to me as well as those who write the text books used to teach electrical installations that any and all circuits installed to serve a laundry area are to conform to the same rule outlined in 210.11(C)(2) by the verbiage ?that at least one? which is not a requirement to install only one nor does it mean that only one is required.

 

[ActionDave]

210.11 (2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit shall have no other outlets.

This means that the least amount that can be installed is one but if one chooses they can install more

210.23 (A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20- ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).
Exception: The small-appliance branch circuits, laundry branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3) shall supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.

210.23 allows a 20 ampere circuit to supply equipment and lighting outlets but the exception is very clear that laundry circuits (meaning more than one) shall have no other outlets.

220.52 (B) Laundry Circuit Load. A load of not less than 1500 volt-amperes shall be included for each 2-wire laundry branch circuit installed as covered by 210.11(C)(2). This load shall be permitted to be included with the general lighting load and subjected to the demand factors provided in Table 220.42.

Here the word ?each? is implying more than one.

Taking the NEC as a whole instead of blindly looking at one sentence one can clearly see that more than one laundry circuit can be installed and if more than one is installed then each has to follow the same rules that only one would be required to follow.

That is very interesting. It is nice to have all the relevant sections on one page.

I still can't see where an additional circuit to the laundry cannot leave the laundry.

I can see some verbiage that relates to how you would treat an additional circuit if you need one.

How does that stop me from running a circuit in and out of the laundry after I have a circuit that serves no other outlets?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...

It is very clear to me as well as those who write the text books used to teach electrical installations ...

I really fail to understand how so many times things that are very clear to you are so unclear to others. This is not a comment on this thread, just a comment in general. The code is not a clearly written document. If it was this forum and others like it would have no purpose.
Getting back to this thread, once I have installed the receptacle outlet required by 210.52(F) I have satisfied the code requirement and CMP 2 agrees with this.
The following is from the panel statement on proposal 2-97 for the 2008 code cycle.

Panel Statement: The intent of this section is to require at least one 20-ampere branch-circuit that is dedicated to the laundry area to ensure that the branch circuit is sufficiently sized to supply electrical equipment associated with doing laundry, such as an iron. Receptacles installed in a laundry area intended to serve laundry equipment must comply with 210.11(C)(2) as presently written. The requirements in section 210.11 do not preclude the addition of other branch circuits in the laundry area.

 

[iwire]

With the greatest of respect please take the time to explain why those other code sections were ever written using the verbiage used.

Why would the CMP even entertain the proposal to change the word ?required? to ?covered? in 220.52(B).

It is very clear to me as well as those who write the text books used to teach electrical installations that any and all circuits installed to serve a laundry area are to conform to the same rule outlined in 210.11(C)(2) by the verbiage ?that at least one? which is not a requirement to install only one nor does it mean that only one is required.

Mike, I refuse to get sucked into your games.

I stand by my post, any number of branch circuits beyond the required laundry area circuit in a single laundry area can be considered general purpose branch circuits and there is nothing in any of the sections you have brought up that says other wise.

If you feel differently that is fine.

 

[kwired]

One problem I see that leaves this to interpretation is the fact that what is a laundry outlet is not defined by the NEC. Other areas involving circuits that are to supply certain outlets and no others such as SABC or bathroom receptacles. Although they have occasional interpretaition issues at times they at least have a definition of a bathroom and a definition of a kitchen.

Another problem is that I have seen a clothes washer and dryer located in rooms that otherwise qualify as a bathroom as well as a kitchen according to NEC definitions. In those cases I still think that the outlet(s) feeding this laundry equipment falls under 210.52(F) and is in addition to anything else required in other parts of 210.52.

 

[jwelectric]

If you feel differently that is fine.

I really fail to understand how so many times things that are very clear to you are so unclear to others.

Let'snot forget that it is also the opinion of many others such as those who have written many text books on the matter as other posters in this thread has pointed out.

I suppose that things are so unclear to all of us that think differently than what you think or things are clear to us and unclear to you. At any rate it is clear that the great minds that write the text books do disagree with the train of thought that only one circuit is required for laundry equipment therefore once this one circuit is installed any other laundry equipment in that area can be on a general purpose circuit.

I belive that the thought of only one circuit is required has to do with a washing machine and all other laundry equipment is then forgotten. Smoothing irons and dryers are also laundry equipment. Any circuit installed in the laundry for this equipment is required to follow the same requirement that the one for the washing machine is to follow.

 

[iwire]

Let'snot forget that it is also the opinion of many others such as those who have written many text books on the matter as other posters in this thread has pointed out.

I have not forgotten that in the least.

I also have not forgotten that only the words used in the NEC are binding and all other statements, yours, mine, Don's, authors and consultants are nothing but opinions.

I suppose that things are so unclear to all of us that think differently than what you think or things are clear to us and unclear to you.

I can tell you that sentence is not the least bit clear. :grin:

At any rate it is clear that the great minds that write the text books do disagree with the train of thought that only one circuit is required for laundry equipment therefore once this one circuit is installed any other laundry equipment in that area can be on a general purpose circuit.

That means nothing to me, that is some authors opinions nothing more than that.

Any circuit installed in the laundry for this equipment is required to follow the same requirement that the one for the washing machine is to follow.

There is nothing in the NEC that backs your view up ...... nothing, zippo, nada.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... Any circuit installed in the laundry for this equipment is required to follow the same requirement that the one for the washing machine is to follow.

CMP 2 does not agree with that. See post #50.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

As I see it the code requires a circuit for the laundry. What is the laundry recep.? I have to assume since to launder means to wash, that the intended receptacle requirement is for the washer. Once that is satisfied is seems that anything else is a plus and can extend anywhere.

To give more credence to this 210.10(C)(2) states-last sentence- This circuit shall have no other outlets. It does not state "These circuits shall have no other outlets.

 

[jwelectric]

I also have not forgotten that only the words used in the NEC are binding and all other statements, yours, mine, Don's, authors and consultants are nothing but opinions

Here you have wrapped it up in a nutshell. It is only your opinion but the sad part is when someone disagrees with your opinion you take to insulting that person. It is not only me that you disagree with but the opinions of those who write the text books as well as the NEC Handbook. Given the choice to choose between the two opinions I chose to look at where and who?s opinion is the best founded, someone who has devoted their life to the study of the NEC or someone who has devoted their life to posting on a discussion forum such as this one and the choice is easy.

CMP 2 does not agree with that. See post #50.

Panel Statement: The intent of this section is to require at least one 20-ampere branch-circuit that is dedicated to the laundry area to ensure that the branch circuit is sufficiently sized to supply electrical equipment associated with doing laundry, such as an iron. Receptacles installed in a laundry area intended to serve laundry equipment must comply with 210.11(C)(2) as presently written. The requirements in section 210.11 do not preclude the addition of other branch circuits in the laundry area.
Where in their statement says that circuits installed are not required to conform with the rules outlined in 210.11(C)(2)

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Mike,
Read what they wrote. They couldn't make it any clearer that they intend to permit general purpose receptacle circuits in the laundry as long as the circuit required for the laundry has been provided.
Also in my opinion the only thing that holds more water, as far as the meaning of a code rule, than an panel statement is a FI.

 

[jumper]

Mike,
Read what they wrote. They couldn't make it any clearer that they intend to permit general purpose receptacle circuits in the laundry as long as the circuit required for the laundry has been provided.
Also in my opinion the only thing that holds more water, as far as the meaning of a code rule, than an panel statement is a FI.

You made the recommendation to read the ROP/ROC or TCR/TCC about 2 years ago when I joined and I must say I find it very useful in trying to understanding the reasoning of code changes and additions/deletions.

 

[jwelectric]

Mike,
Read what they wrote. They couldn't make it any clearer that they intend to permit general purpose receptacle circuits in the laundry as long as the circuit required for the laundry has been provided.
Also in my opinion the only thing that holds more water, as far as the meaning of a code rule, than an panel statement is a FI.

So your theory is that the code panel says it would be compliant to install one 20 amp circuit and label it a laundry circuit then install a general purpose circuit and plug the washer into that circuit.

 

[texie]

laundy recep

laundy recep

Here's my take. I agree with Dennis in post #55 with 1 big exception. I don't believe the laundry circuit is required to used at all for the washer-it's your choice. Nowhere does it state that that you must put the washing machine on that circuit. I think it is in fact better to put the washing machine on it's own 15 amp branch circuit and the code allows this. Then use the required 20 amp laundry circuit to be used for other outlets in the laundry area where they will be put to good use-such as an iron, etc. And oh 'ya just to get everybody riled up, show me a residential washer thats ever been made that needs to be on a 20 amp circuit.

 

[jwelectric]

So your theory is that the code panel says it would be compliant to install one 20 amp circuit and label it a laundry circuit then install a general purpose circuit and plug the washer into that circuit.

My argument is that any circuit installed, be it one or a dozen, to supply the receptacle or receptacles as outlined in 210.52(F) cannot serve any other outlets.
I also believe that a careful read of the proposals over the past few code cycles will make this very clear.

Best as I can remember this discussion started about a circuit used to supply an iron. The iron is part of the laundry.