Recept at the Washing Machine

[ActionDave]

My argument is that any circuit installed, be it one or a dozen, to supply the receptacle or receptacles as outlined in 210.52(F) cannot serve any other outlets.

Where in the code does it say this? I can't find the words that indicate this. I looking and reading and flipping pages and I don't see it anywhere.

Best as I can remember this discussion started about a circuit used to supply an iron. The iron is part of the laundry.

No, it started with me asking that if I ran a circuit to the laundry and it served no other outlets could I then run an additional circuit to the washer and go on to power controls and an alarm for a sewer lift.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

And oh 'ya just to get everybody riled up, show me a residential washer thats ever been made that needs to be on a 20 amp circuit.

That is not the issue. Many people use a 20 amp recep. for the washer and also add another outlet from the washer for another laundry recep. Now, an iron and a washer together-- I bet it needs a 20 amp circuit and in some cases that wont be enough.

I agree the whole term launder means to wash, fold and iron. Here's the catch, if only one circuit is required to stay in the laundry room then I can run a circuit to the ironing area and call it a day. With this allow me to wire the washer and extend it to another room in the house.

You see Mike is correct in that if you all think that only one circuit can be designated laundry and it doesn't have to be the washer then the washer recep. would be allowed to exit the room and be on with other items. Now who believes this?

 

[ActionDave]

You see Mike is correct in that if you all think that only one circuit can be designated laundry and it doesn't have to be the washer then the washer recep. would be allowed to exit the room and be on with other items. Now who believes this?

You sound like a conformist.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So your theory is that the code panel says it would be compliant to install one 20 amp circuit and label it a laundry circuit then install a general purpose circuit and plug the washer into that circuit.

That is not what I said or what the code panel said.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You sound like a conformist.

LOL..sometimes I am- don't tell anyone---- I am just throwing out both sides of the argument. :grin: I know what I do conforms but not convinced I need to. I always have a circuit for the washer and another circuit for receptacles in the room.

Irons can come be 1400 watts so I imagine with the washer on the circuit would not hold.

 

[jwelectric]

I want to make sure that I am very clear in what I am saying whether or not anyone agrees. It seems that I am not very clear and I base this on a conversation I had on the phone this morning.

Any and all circuits installed to serve receptacles in a laundry area must be installed as outlined in 210.11(C)(2).
Case in point;

One circuit is installed to supply the receptacle for a washing machine. This circuit must be 20 amps, included in the service calculation at 1500 VA and cannot supply any other outlets except for those in the laundry area.

Another circuit is installed to supply a receptacle for a gas dryer. This circuit must be 20 amps, included in the service calculation at 1500 VA and cannot supply any other outlets except for those in the laundry area.

A third circuit is installed to supply either a receptacle for or a built-in smoothing iron. This circuit must be 20 amps, included in the service calculation at 1500 VA and cannot supply any other outlets except for those in the laundry area.

A fourth circuit is installed to a switch for lights in the laundry area. This circuit can be a general purpose circuit and leave the laundry area and serve other outlets. It will be calculated at 3 watts per square foot. It cannot supply a receptacle in the laundry area for a smoothing iron or a built in iron. It can?t supply the receptacle for the gas dryer or the washing machine.

The three circuits installed for the washing machine, gas dryer, and smoothing iron cannot supply the lighting in the laundry area.

A sewage alarm is not an outlet. The sewage alarm can be plugged into any of the above three receptacles without being a violation of the NEC. One could plug in a boom box to listen to a little Billy Idol (using Action Dave?s humor) and it would not be a violation of the NEC.

Any cord and plug connected equipment is not an outlet, but instead it plugs into the outlet. This was pointed out to me here on this site a while back about under cabinet lights. The light is not an outlet but a cord and plug connected piece of equipment that plugs into the outlet, in this case the small appliance receptacle outlet.

I hope this clears this up as to my opinion on this matter.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I hope this clears this up as to my opinion on this matter.

I always thought that was clear as to what you were saying.

 

[iwire]

I hope this clears this up as to my opinion on this matter.

Cool.

To clear my opinion up.

• I am required to provide one 20 amp 120 volt laundry area circuit in a laundry area with at least one receptacle outlet connected to it.
• The NEC does not require that a washing machine be plugged into that circuit.
• The NEC does not prohibit bringing additional general purpose branch circuits into the laundry area
• The washer could be supplied by one one of these additional general purpose branch circuits.
• These additional general purpose branch circuits do not require any additional load on the service calculations.

Someone will have to show me words contained in NEC sections to change my opinion.

 

[texie]

I think "iwire" in post #69 sums it up nicely. I fully agree.

 

[Steviechia2]

Hey wasn't this an action packed post!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Hey wasn't this an action packed post!

A little too much testosterone for me. :grin:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I want to make sure that I am very clear in what I am saying whether or not anyone agrees. It seems that I am not very clear and I base this on a conversation I had on the phone this morning.

Any and all circuits installed to serve receptacles in a laundry area must be installed as outlined in 210.11(C)(2).

This is the part that I disagree with and so does CMP2. Their comment that says "The requirements in section 210.11 do not preclude the addition of other branch circuits in the laundry area. " makes that very clear.

One circuit is installed to supply the receptacle for a washing machine. This circuit must be 20 amps, included in the service calculation at 1500 VA and cannot supply any other outlets except for those in the laundry area.

This is a laundry circuit and I agree.

Another circuit is installed to supply a receptacle for a gas dryer. This circuit must be 20 amps, included in the service calculation at 1500 VA and cannot supply any other outlets except for those in the laundry area.

This is also a laundry circuit and again I agree. There is nothing that requires it to be on a second circuit, but it is installed for laundry equipment and must be a 20 amp circuit and must be included in the load calculations.

A third circuit is installed to supply either a receptacle for or a built-in smoothing iron. This circuit must be 20 amps, included in the service calculation at 1500 VA and cannot supply any other outlets except for those in the laundry area.

This is a again a laundry circuit because it supplies laundry equipment and all of the rules for laundry circuits apply. It is not a required circuit as the code only requires a single laundry circuit.

A fourth circuit is installed to a switch for lights in the laundry area. This circuit can be a general purpose circuit and leave the laundry area and serve other outlets. It will be calculated at 3 watts per square foot. It cannot supply a receptacle in the laundry area for a smoothing iron or a built in iron. It can?t supply the receptacle for the gas dryer or the washing machine.

I agree that this is a general purpose circuit, but do not agree that it cannot supply receptacles in the area of the laundry. As long as one or more 20 amp circuits have been installed to serve the laundry equipment, there is no restriction on installing additional general purpose receptacle outlets and circuits in the room or area that contains the laundry equipment.

... A sewage alarm is not an outlet. The sewage alarm can be plugged into any of the above three receptacles without being a violation of the NEC. One could plug in a boom box to listen to a little Billy Idol (using Action Dave?s humor) and it would not be a violation of the NEC.

I agree that there is no restriction on what loads are plugged into the required laundry equipment circuits.

I hope this clears this up as to my opinion on this matter.

Anything posted here or published in any form other than a formal interpretation is just someone's opinion.

As I have said before, if the code was as clear and you think it is, there would be no need for this and other code forums.
When you look at the ROP you will find proposals that are based on forum threads. Proposals that are intended to clear up the unclear sections of the code.

 

[jwelectric]

This is the part that I disagree with and so does CMP2. Their comment that says "The requirements in section 210.11 do not preclude the addition of other branch circuits in the laundry area. " makes that very clear.
I agree that this is a general purpose circuit, but do not agree that it cannot supply receptacles in the area of the laundry. As long as one or more 20 amp circuits have been installed to serve the laundry equipment, there is no restriction on installing additional general purpose receptacle outlets and circuits in the room or area that contains the laundry equipment.

Where does it say that this additional circuit can be a "general purpose" circuit and that it can supply receptacles in the laundry area?

I just can't find that part...

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Where does it say that this additional circuit can be a "general purpose" circuit and that it can supply receptacles in the laundry area?

I just can't find that part...

It says "other" as opposed to additional and it says "in the laundry area". I don't understand how anyone can read that any other way.
As always we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[charlie b]

I perceive the following significant difference between Mike?s summary statements in Post 67 and Bob?s summary statements in Post 69. Mike speaks of providing receptacles with deliberate intent that they be used for specific laundry-related components. Bob speaks of providing (in addition to the required 20 amp circuit and receptacle) a set of receptacles with no specific pre-determined purpose, but with the understanding that the homeowner may choose to plug a laundry-related component into a receptacle outlet that happens to be powered from a general-purpose circuit.

I agree with Bob that installing one 20-amp circuit with no outlets other than receptacles in the laundry area, and that installing other general purpose circuits in the same area, is allowable. I agree with Mike that if I were designing a laundry area with knowledge of the intended components as he listed, then I would provide 20 amp circuits with no other outlets, and I would calculate them at 1500 VA each. But I disagree with Mike, in that I would consider this a design choice on my part, and not a requirement of the code.

 

[charlie b]

This is a notice to gatorheel and to DavidTu. All other forum members may disregard this post.

If you are looking for the comments that you posted on this thread, I have removed them. This Forum is intended to assist professional electricians, inspectors, engineers, and other members of the electrical industry in the performance of their job-related tasks. However, if you are not an electrician or an electrical contractor, then we are not permitted to help you perform your own electrical installation, troubleshooting, or repair work.

 

[iwire]

I agree with Bob

That is a bold move that may negatively effect your credit score. :grin:

I would provide 20 amp circuits with no other outlets.

I likely would as well but will also point out that I have not seen residential clothes washers that required a 20 amp circuit. They really only have a small motor and a few controls. I think most are well under 10 amps and well under the current a dishwasher uses which does not have a 20 amp NEC mandate.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

This is a again a laundry circuit because it supplies laundry equipment

Any and all circuits installed to serve receptacles in a laundry area must be installed as outlined in 210.11(C)(2).

This may sound counter-intuitive but I don't see where the NEC identifies any circuit installed with the INTENTION of serving "laundry equipment" as a laundry circuit.

If I installed a circuit in a non-laundry area for the specific purpose of using an iron because my wife likes to iron there and doesn't like when the lights flicker when the heating element in the iron comes on (true story unfortunately).... Is this now a laundry circuit? And therefore bound by 210.11(C)(2)?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

This may sound counter-intuitive but I don't see where the NEC identifies any circuit installed with the INTENTION of serving "laundry equipment" as a laundry circuit.

If I installed a circuit in a non-laundry area for the specific purpose of using an iron because my wife likes to iron there and doesn't like when the lights flicker when the heating element in the iron comes on (true story unfortunately).... Is this now a laundry circuit? And therefore bound by 210.11(C)(2)?

The NEC only requires circuits installed in the laundry area that are intended to service laundry equipment to be bound by 210.11(C)(2).

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

The NEC only requires circuits installed in the laundry area that are intended to service laundry equipment to be bound by 210.11(C)(2).

I don't see where it says that...

Lets say I provide one 20a laundry circuit for the washer.
Can I tap off the light circuit in the room to provide the power for a gas-powered dryer?