Receptacle for air cond. equip.

[allenwayne]

As Jim stated since there is no power on until there is a a final.Then a meter release is issued to the poco and then a meter is installed after the fact.All the AHJ has is what is visual only.IE:GFCI device or a GFCI sticker with out the sticker they use 210 8 A 3 as the article for the tag since there is no way to determine if it is in fact GFCI protected and if there is no GFCI device and no silly sticker then they are well within the boundries of logic to cite the article as a reason for failing the inspection.Heck an entire home might not work and on the final it passes.This is 1000`s and 1,000`s of inspections annually done this way.Not saying it is right ,but that is how they do it.

 

[dnem]

It just seems rather silly to require a sticker that is not required by the NEC to pass an installation that may or may not be GFCI protected, which is required by the NEC.

That whole concept of finaling a project without power is just crazy. It's impossible to do a effective final inspection without power.

I can't understand how that practice ever started.

The only thing that I can think of is that somebody came with the idea that it would be dangerous for the workers to have the ability to power up sections of the building that are still under construction. So the solution was to come in and do a useless visual, give a final, and never actually do the most important part, which is inspecting the site in working condition.

David

 

[dnem]

The outside is common area to both so its not tresspassing.It is power theft unless you have permision to use it for this reason.I rather dought the service man will be there if the building is not open (he needs to get to both halves of unit and the thermastat.Chances are high if the AC is broke the window is open anyways.Would you hire a service man that does not carry a 100 foot cord with him ?This 25 foot rule is a bit crazy.

I'm in total agreement about the 25' portion of the requirement. But determining if a neighboring businesses plug meets the requirement is a different question.

David

 

[jwelectric]

That whole concept of finaling a project without power is just crazy. It's impossible to do a effective final inspection without power.
David

Would you take a few minutes and explain to me why you feel this way.
How does having power help to check for compliance with the NEC?

 

[charlie tuna]

what was the intent of the code to add the receptacle requirment??? too many a/c servicemen being electrocuted! it was around the time that evacuation pumps were beinging to be used and ran for hours -- sometimes all night. a/c servicemen were "rigging" a temporary receptacle out of the a.c. unit's service disconnect which didn't have a neutral -- hay they knew how to create a "french neutral".... there are many above listed problems explaining how if one receptacle was allowed --- there could be problems and for this reason i think there sould be a receptacle for each separately metered power source at their a/c unit(s). if it's a commercial building on one meter, one receptacle is sufficient. my $.02..............

 

[allenwayne]

I`m not sure how the common practice of a power off inspection ever got started.It is soley a visual inspection spacing,clearances for disconnects,closet lighting,panels labeled etc.But even though ludicrious as it may seem the NEC does not have a provision that anything actually has to work.Other than in a workmanlike installation.The poco gets a meter release and if when they set the meter there is no neutral to phase fault with the main off they install the meter and go on.The inspectors can only cite what they can see.Awhile back I posted doing well like 17 finals in 3 hours,with the chief inspector of this county.I had a helper open the panels for him he checked clearances and breaker ratings and spacing. and we went to the next home on the street.You see this is the tract home capitol they build entire neighborhoods in 45 days.One day a field and bam a subdivision springs up and is occupied.There has been talk of the finals being power on but the builders know that if that occurs the time frame for the closings will be longer.I have seen a final at 2 PM on a friday the closing soon after and occupied the same day.As stupid as it sounds I have seen people close on homes that have not even got the final electrical inspection.The building dept. will issue a temp C.O. with the rider pending final electric.

 

[dnem]

Would you take a few minutes and explain to me why you feel this way.
How does having power help to check for compliance with the NEC?

Just like we've been talking about on this thread, do you trust stickers on reg plugs that claim to be loaded off of a GFCI ?
How do you test any GFCI with the power off ? I've ran across a few that have not test tripped brand new, right out of the box, but worked like a regular plug.
How do you test grounding on plugs without power and a tester ?
How do you confirm that egrees lighting is working ? Is the biulding allowed to be occupied without working egrees lighting ?
How do you confirm the restrictions of 210.11(C) have been met if you can't turn on or off any breakers ?
How do you test AFCIs ? Do they work ? Are they protecting all of the outlets that they're required to protect ?
Can you test stairway lighting without power ?
And in Ohio, we have to test the smoke detectors both with and without power.

David

 

[iwire]

David I do not have much to do with houses but in the projects I work the inspectors are not concerned if items work.

They are only concerned that the items are installed to code.

Now as it happens we have power at the final but the inspectors do not go around checking that each light switch works.

Items like that are left for the customer and EC to work out.

Not saying you do it wrong and we do it right, just pointing out there are many different ways inspections are handled.

 

[allenwayne]

The nec says that there has to be gfci protection,afci protection,spacing etc.It does not state that an inspector has to ensure that it works .As long as the proper stickers say gfci protected the panel says bedrooms are afci protected the spacing is correct and all looks compliant then unless a jurisdiction has an addendum on record that these items will be checked to ensure they operate as intended then this is a redundant conversation.
We have hashed and rehashed the A/C breaker sizing over and over but if the name plate says min 20 amps for min. cir. ampacity and had a 60 listed as the max breaker size we don`t have to size the conductors for the max breaker size.If you can show mw where in the NEC it says that the install will work I will say you are correct.
The fact is it says what is required as a min. and as long as that is met and/or unless there is a local addendum to supercide it then power is not a requirement for a final.Yes that does open a whole can of worms but once the AHJ signs it off it is visually code compliant and thats the NEC requirement.Is it right not in my opinion but how many inspections could you do in a day checking every light gfci afci etc.
Our inspectors have usually 35 to 60 inspections/ day 5 to 6 days a week thats per inspector ,one county here has about 10 inspectors so thats 350 to 600 inspections / day and if they roll an inspection its a domino effect.

 

[mpd]

as far as the original post, IMO a receptacle would be required for each tenant,


as far as the final inspection with no power, doing a final inspection without power is a joke, why not just have the contractor send pictures and pass them from the office, I would NEVER sign my name to a final with no power.

 

[iwire]

as far as the original post, IMO a receptacle would be required for each tenant,

Thats perfectly logical and I also think it should be required.

That said I don't see how it can be required without a change in the current NEC.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

NEC does not say anything ever needs inspection or that a license is required.It deals only with the actual install and thats to a minimum.It does not care about good design,looks,brands .It contains 2 words that get used over and over ,SHALL and SHALL NOT.Inspections and license are a local issue that the county says will protect the consumer LOL.Reallity at least here is that 95 % of the work never sees a licensed electrician let alone the master that pulled the permit.Our $200,000 homes are built and wired by the cheapest bid with low wages.The electrician often is a new guy for $10 or $12 hour.And if you care too work here learn to speak spanish.Not pretty but thats how it is.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Thats perfectly logical and I also think it should be required.

That said I don't see how it can be required without a change in the current NEC.

I agree it needs changed but as written now it appears its not required.I originally thought someone would fine a code # as i thought we really were in violation.Seems lot of things required in residential are not in commercial.

 

[Awg-Dawg]

Hi Bob

David I do not have much to do with houses but in the projects I work the inspectors are not concerned if items work.

It is different here,there are things like shunt-trips,RTU/AHUs shut downs and egress that they check.

Not that I question your integrity,but how would one know if what you put in really works?

 

[iwire]

It is different here,there are things like shunt-trips,RTU/AHUs shut downs and egress that they check.

The FD checks the operation of those items when they test the fire alarm but it is unnecessary as we have to get a certification test by an independent contractor.

Not that I question your integrity,but how would one know if what you put in really works?

The customer knows.

We don't get paid until the punch list is complete.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

We do not have power for final but rest assured we do a hot check and everything will work before customer moves in.We would do this even if there was no inspections.Last thing anyone needs is a call from customer saying the #@$%%$##^ doesnt work.

 

[Awg-Dawg]

The customer knows.



We don't get paid until the punch list is complete.

Do you mean to tell me you get a punch list? Slacker

 

[allenwayne]

as far as the original post, IMO a receptacle would be required for each tenant,


as far as the final inspection with no power, doing a final inspection without power is a joke, why not just have the contractor send pictures and pass them from the office, I would NEVER sign my name to a final with no power.

So how would you do this final without a meter set.The poco here requires a meter release from the AHJ and one will not be set with out the final.It`s a catch 22 situation.No final no meter no meter no power.The inspectors hands are tied.Is it the inspectors requirement that what is installed to function ???No just that it is code compliantIE spacing as required.AFCI as required,GFCI as required even if that means a GFCI sticker is what says it is GFCI protected.Etc..Do I think the whole process is stupid YES,Is this is how it`s done here YES,But the NEC says it will be code compliant within the minimum requirements and if they are met then a final inspection will pass.
So if the install meets the min. requirements and installed in a workmalike manner and the EC or h/o has met these they have no choice but to pass the inspection.

 

[infinity]

So how would you do this final without a meter set.The poco here requires a meter release from the AHJ and one will not be set with out the final.It`s a catch 22 situation.No final no meter no meter no power.The inspectors hands are tied.Is it the inspectors requirement that what is installed to function ???No just that it is code compliantIE spacing as required.AFCI as required,GFCI as required even if that means a GFCI sticker is what says it is GFCI protected.Etc..Do I think the whole process is stupid YES,Is this is how it`s done here YES,But the NEC says it will be code compliant within the minimum requirements and if they are met then a final inspection will pass.
So if the install meets the min. requirements and installed in a workmalike manner and the EC or h/o has met these they have no choice but to pass the inspection.

Around here you would get a final for the service before the rest of the place is finished. A cut-in card would be sent to the utility so that they can energize the service. Everything else will be inspected at the final.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

The reason for no power is to keep people from moving in before a final.Very effective.If up to me i would far rather have a meter from the start.