Receptacle for air cond. equip.

[dnem]

The nec says that there has to be gfci protection,afci protection,spacing etc.It does not state that an inspector has to ensure that it works .

If you don't check if it works, how do you know that it's GFCI or AFCI protected ?

As long as the proper stickers say gfci protected the panel says bedrooms are afci protected the spacing is correct and all looks compliant then unless a jurisdiction has an addendum on record that these items will be checked to ensure they operate as intended then this is a redundant conversation.

"proper stickers say gfci"
Not only are stickers not required but all they are is a promise. "I promise that I installed it right !"

Like mpd said:

as far as the final inspection with no power, doing a final inspection without power is a joke, why not just have the contractor send pictures and pass them from the office, I would NEVER sign my name to a final with no power.

I would like someone to answer that question. If there's no power for the final, why not just have the contractor send pictures and pass them from the office ?

We have hashed and rehashed the A/C breaker sizing over and over but if the name plate says min 20 amps for min. cir. ampacity and had a 60 listed as the max breaker size we don`t have to size the conductors for the max breaker size.If you can show mw where in the NEC it says that the install will work I will say you are correct.

I?m not sure who this thought is directed to. Was someone talking about AC circuit sizing ?

The fact is it says what is required as a min. and as long as that is met and/or unless there is a local addendum to supercide it then power is not a requirement for a final.Yes that does open a whole can of worms but once the AHJ signs it off it is visually code compliant and thats the NEC requirement.

?it is visually code compliant and thats the NEC requirement?
Your position is that the NEC is a visual inspection code ?
I couldn?t disagree more strongly !

Is it right not in my opinion but how many inspections could you do in a day checking every light gfci afci etc.
Our inspectors have usually 35 to 60 inspections/ day 5 to 6 days a week thats per inspector ,one county here has about 10 inspectors so thats 350 to 600 inspections / day and if they roll an inspection its a domino effect.

NOW we?re getting to the real heart of your position. It has nothing to do with how proper inspections should be done. This is all about saving the building department the money of hiring the needed amount of inspectors to do the job correctly. If your inspectors have 35 to 60 inspections a day, you don?t have enough inspectors.

60 inspections over 8 hours averages starting a different inspection every 8 minutes. And travel time is included in that 8 minutes.

Our quickest simplest inspection is a trench inspection and I probably couldn?t do 60 of them in a day even if I drove a dragster from site to site.

If all that matters is production and not quality of the job done, why not just have the contractor send pictures and pass them from the office ?

If the AHJ doesn?t want to hire the necessary manpower, why bother calling it a building department ? Just call it a consulting department.

David

 

[dnem]

It is different here,there are things like shunt-trips,RTU/AHUs shut downs and egress that they check.

The FD checks the operation of those items when they test the fire alarm but it is unnecessary as we have to get a certification test by an independent contractor.

How does the FD check those things without power ? And if they're waiting until after power, which comes after the final, then isn't the CO is already issued ?

Not that I question your integrity,but how would one know if what you put in really works?

The customer knows.

So the customer is the real inspector ?
Does the customer have the training to know what to look for ?
Would the customer know if the GFCIs were working properly ?

David

 

[dnem]

Around here you would get a final for the service before the rest of the place is finished. A cut-in card would be sent to the utility so that they can energize the service. Everything else will be inspected at the final.

I would have never guessed that there are places that don't have separate service main inspections.

In our county, the service main inspection sometimes gets called in before the rough, and many times at the same time as the rough.

David

 

[jwelectric]

For several years I have listened to the talk about the power on and the power off issue of inspecting a dwelling unit and this is what I have learned.

Most of those that would like to have the power on when doing a final say that they would check the GFCI and AFCI circuits and test for polarity of receptacles.

When ask what they check for now they say;
Spot check for grounding on switches and boxes being flush with wall. Check for boxes on bath vanity fixtures as well as other wall fixtures. Check panel and connections in panel. Look at equipment under the house and in attic. Check various other items.

About how much time do you spend looking for these violations?
Some will say 20 minutes while others say that they are so covered up that they will spend about 10 minutes.

Now I have spent many hours in a classroom setting doing all that I can to know my trade a little better and have even taken a few courses from Universities, but, I don?t have one of those papers to hang on the wall to tell me that I am real smart so I need a little help.
Can I get some of you inspectors on this forum to help me with a math problem that I am having?


For an average year round I think that spending twenty minutes on both rough and final on a dwelling unit will not give ample time to make a through inspection with or without power.

Now I want to do anything that I can to help the inspector being that I know that his time is limited so I make sure that power is on the house for him to check out all the circuits.

How much time will he spend doing the final inspection now?
Will having the power on for him give more hours to the day?

This is what would happen. The inspector would still have an average of about twenty minutes to do a final inspection and he will spend every second of it turning on and off lights and remove no covers, no looking at any equipment. The inspection process will turn into a punch list of what does not work and the connections their self will never be seen.

I for one say leave the power off and have that inspector crawl under the house and remove the furnace cover to see it requires copper conductors or not and leave the punch list to the general contractor.
The first inspector that wrote me up for a light that did not come on would only get future behind as we would be spending a lot of time talking to his director or the board that issued him his certificate.
.

 

[allenwayne]

dnem I couldn`t agree with your stance more ,of how can it be checked properly if there is no power on.But the situation is what it is .No power on finals.In some rare cases certain jurisdictions will allow a temp power on if it can be proven that it is needed for work to be completed but that almost takes an act of congress to do anymore.
Yes THEY do need more inspectors here ,but with the low pay scale they get,Lower than the average electrician makes by 20% THEY not me have a hard time finding people to fill the positions.
I brought up the A/C wire sizing just to show that this is a subject that can be discussed till the cows come home and it will still be the situation unchanged after the fact.The fact as stupid as it is that,inspections on a home have 3 phases
#1 underground if applicable
#2 rough in
#3 final
Then a meter release is issued and a meter is set.
As far as the amount of inspections an inspector gets daily well this is just the facts of what is the situation.For the most part they roll inspections on a daily basis,that in turns creates the domino effect since they will be added to the work load for the next day so on and so forth.The outlook isn`t any better in the future.They are in the process of building cities within cities here.Communities with not 100`s,but 1000`s of new homes complete with there own malls hospitals and schools.But the amount of inspectors remain the same.I feel for these guys,I know each and every one of them and they are very good inspectors.But there hands are tied ,more inspections same amount of inspectors.I`ve seen entire blocks get finals on the same day.I`m talking not 2 or 3 homes but dozens.I know I walked each and every inspection with the inspector and 2 crews just to make sure all passed.
The inspectors are stuck with a visual inspection ONLY.If the AFCI breaker says bedroom then they have to assume it is.If a receptacle has a sticker attached that says GFCI protected then they have to assume it is.They check spacing,clearances breakers match the unit ,boxed flush,etc.If you have a remedy for what is post it I would bring it to the attention of our chief building inspector if it was valid.But shy of giving more money to the county for inspectors well it`s just not going to happen.
I don`t like the situation,the inspectors don`t like the situation ,the builders don`t like the situation,the homeowners don`t like the situation.I have seen it all over the past 20 years,homes that have been finaled and when powered up it was found that somewhere between rough in and drywall someone sole all the home runs.To homeowners coming in after rough in to add what ever they wanted but didn`t want to pay the builder.
So if you have a valid remedy then post it other than just saying this is a stupid way of doing things..................

 

[charlie b]

210.25 (for residential). As for the commercial occupancies, I'd say at first glance it's legal.

as far as the original post, IMO a receptacle would be required for each tenant

That's perfectly logical and I also think it should be required. That said I don't see how it can be required without a change in the current NEC.

I agree with mpd, I disagree with George (in that I don't think it's legal for any occupancy), and I disagree with Bob (in that I don't think a code change is needed).

Think of it this way. Suppose an office building is just starting to bring in tenants. Suppose (and in this area of the country, this is not uncommon) that air conditioning is an optional extra that the landlord will install, if so requested. Suppose one tenant has occupied an office, and did elect air conditioning. Suppose a new tenant just signed a rental contract, and has elected air conditioning.

The A/C contractor is brought in to do his thing, and the electrician is hired to install a new circuit (from the new tenant's service panel) for the new A/C unit. The electrician takes out a permit for that circuit as well as for the tenant improvements in the new office.

The Electrical Inspector comes by for the final closeout permit inspection. He says, "Where is the receptacle required by 210.63?" The electrician says, "It's right over there, on the other side of the previous A/C unit, and it is within 25 feet of the new A/C unit."

The Inspector then says, "I am here to inspect this office, not that office. The permit I have in hand gives this address, not that address. I will not look at any electrical component that is not located at the address shown on the permit. I want to see the receptacle required by 210.63, and I don't see it. I am going to write up a violation, and I will cite 210.63 as the article being violated, and I will not sign off the permit until a new receptacle is installed."

I submit that the electrician has no answer. The electrician cannot cite an article that permits power to a required circuit to be derived from a separate occupancy. This is not one of those "If it is not prohibited, then it is permitted" sorts of things. You can't take credit for power coming from someone else's meter, and rely on "well the code does not prohibit me from using their power" as the technical basis for your viewpoint. If both parties have the time and money and inclination to fight this issue out in court, the Inspector would win.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I agree with mpd, I disagree with George (in that I don't think it's legal for any occupancy), and I disagree with Bob (in that I don't think a code change is needed).

Think of it this way. Suppose an office building is just starting to bring in tenants. Suppose (and in this area of the country, this is not uncommon) that air conditioning is an optional extra that the landlord will install, if so requested. Suppose one tenant has occupied an office, and did elect air conditioning. Suppose a new tenant just signed a rental contract, and has elected air conditioning.

The A/C contractor is brought in to do his thing, and the electrician is hired to install a new circuit (from the new tenant's service panel) for the new A/C unit. The electrician takes out a permit for that circuit as well as for the tenant improvements in the new office.

The Electrical Inspector comes by for the final closeout permit inspection. He says, "Where is the receptacle required by 210.63?" The electrician says, "It's right over there, on the other side of the previous A/C unit, and it is within 25 feet of the new A/C unit."

The Inspector then says, "I am here to inspect this office, not that office. The permit I have in hand gives this address, not that address. I will not look at any electrical component that is not located at the address shown on the permit. I want to see the receptacle required by 210.63, and I don't see it. I am going to write up a violation, and I will cite 210.63 as the article being violated, and I will not sign off the permit until a new receptacle is installed."

I submit that the electrician has no answer. The electrician cannot cite an article that permits power to a required circuit to be derived from a separate occupancy. This is not one of those "If it is not prohibited, then it is permitted" sorts of things. You can't take credit for power coming from someone else's meter, and rely on "well the code does not prohibit me from using their power" as the technical basis for your viewpoint. If both parties have the time and money and inclination to fight this issue out in court, the Inspector would win.

While i 100 % agree it should have its own outlet there has only been brought up 2 code numbers.210.25 actually helps support that its not required to have 2 seperate outlets in commercial by saying RESIDENTIAL.Therefore 210.25 does not apply here.210.63 just says i must have an outlet,and i have one.It is from a differant address,so what.Here all house meters have a seperate address anyways and you would allow the house to supply it.While the inspector might not like what he sees it has met 210.63 so he better not try to use that to support his tag.Fact is it was an overlooked issue of the nec maybe.210.25 makes me think they singled out residential only as needing it.They can not just say i want another outlet, its not up to them.They can do it by legally amending the nec in writing, otherwise they loose.When i opened this post i was sure i had a violation but now with no code saying so i would be forced to pass it if i was the inspector.

 

[LarryFine]

In my ever-so-humble opinion, any common-area exterior receptacles, just as with lighting, should be supplied from a separate, owner-owned p) house panel, which would (or should) assure continuous power.

Not too long ago, we wired a mixed-use building (2 retail spaces and 2 apartments), and supplied the four A/C units On two different fooftops) with a pair of receptacles fed from the basement house panel.

Actually, this same circuit also feeds one hallway receptacle on each floor, all supplied through a GFCI receptacle mounted at the house panel, whcih is a 100a MLO panel, fed from a 5-space meter/main stack.


By the way, I've always thought that the GFCI stickers are only required where the receptacles are GFCI-protected to comply with a no-EGC situation. Normally-GFCI-protected receptacles don't need stickers.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

The stickers actually save a few warranty calls.My gripe is they are cheap paper that wont last long.

 

[mpd]

jim w

the problem I have with it is, all the tenants are not going to have access to the tenant space that feeds the receptacle, if the breaker or GFI trips inside the tenant space, the other tenants no longer have an accessible receptacle,
I would fail it and I would cite 210.63.

 

[andrew]

EC is to Inspector as smoking is to non smokers if you are a smoker you don't have any idea how bad a habit you have. You cannot tell me how good or bad my job is until you do it. Most of us Inspectors have been EC's or close to it. As for the OP a meter, a receptacle per 210.63 unless the receptacle in question is on a house meter. As for power on a structure I sight 110.7, 210.8 (a sticker does not a GFCI make), 210.12(B) (unless you put a sticker "AFCI protected on the smoke detector). LarryFine is correct about the EGC and the sticker, it is one of the installation instructions just don't remember which one.
I don't do cursory inspections no matter how many I have. It is not my fault there is not enough inspectors. It is my job to give the owner of the property (because isn't that who we ultimately answer to), the best inspection I possibly can and it is my fault if I don't.
JimW knows all to well the Plight we all have in Florida (and maybe all over the US), piece workers, substandard workmanship, etc.
I'm on this forum to learn reconizing that I do not know it all. I believe David and the other inspectors here feel the same way.
All you other individuals are the "Good Guys" some with a few twists and turns but believe me you don't want to see the "Bad Guys" we see them every day and it ain't pretty.

Andrew

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Actually i have a multi unit warehouse right now that the AC unit outside depends on the house meter that has yet to get a meter to meet 210.63.The unit has a meter and is running.Point here is that 210.63 says nothing about housemeter.Should landlord deside to turn it off do i have a violation.I think not.All it says is i shall have an outlet,says nothing about paying for electric.So whats the differance here if the owner agrees to keep power turned on to a house meter or a vacant unit ? Both are really the same.

 

[dnem]

For several years I have listened to the talk about the power on and the power off issue of inspecting a dwelling unit and this is what I have learned.

Most of those that would like to have the power on when doing a final say that they would check the GFCI and AFCI circuits and test for polarity of receptacles.

When ask what they check for now they say;
Spot check for grounding on switches and boxes being flush with wall. Check for boxes on bath vanity fixtures as well as other wall fixtures. Check panel and connections in panel. Look at equipment under the house and in attic. Check various other items.

About how much time do you spend looking for these violations?
Some will say 20 minutes while others say that they are so covered up that they will spend about 10 minutes.

Now I have spent many hours in a classroom setting doing all that I can to know my trade a little better and have even taken a few courses from Universities, but, I don?t have one of those papers to hang on the wall to tell me that I am real smart so I need a little help.
Can I get some of you inspectors on this forum to help me with a math problem that I am having?


For an average year round I think that spending twenty minutes on both rough and final on a dwelling unit will not give ample time to make a through inspection with or without power.

Now I want to do anything that I can to help the inspector being that I know that his time is limited so I make sure that power is on the house for him to check out all the circuits.

How much time will he spend doing the final inspection now?
Will having the power on for him give more hours to the day?

This is what would happen. The inspector would still have an average of about twenty minutes to do a final inspection and he will spend every second of it turning on and off lights and remove no covers, no looking at any equipment. The inspection process will turn into a punch list of what does not work and the connections their self will never be seen.

I for one say leave the power off and have that inspector crawl under the house and remove the furnace cover to see it requires copper conductors or not and leave the punch list to the general contractor.
The first inspector that wrote me up for a light that did not come on would only get future behind as we would be spending a lot of time talking to his director or the board that issued him his certificate.
.

"For an average year round I think that spending twenty minutes on both rough and final on a dwelling unit will not give ample time to make a through inspection with or without power."

Absolutely ! 20 minutes is just showing up not inspecting.

I spend 30 to 45min on a final of a very small "spec" house [3000 sq'] that has minimal electrical devices and a contractor that has shown thru the years to be conscientious. Larger house [6000 sq'] will take 1 to 1 1/2 hrs depending on contractor and if I'm writing up violations or it's "clean". Monsters [9 to 15K sq'] hit that critical price point that means that there will be many times over the minimal amount found in a little "spec" house. Monster or houseowner exempt finals take 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hrs.

Roughs run 10 to 30 minutes depending on size on familiar contractor/house plan or not.

Commercial inspections and homeowner exempts are the big question marks of each day. They can eat up a hell of alot more time. But sometimes a simple plug and layin light office job, with the contractor on site, can be a quick in and out.

For us, all inspections that are called in by 3pm of a business day are done on the next business day, no exceptions. If the load is heavy, it's overtime.

I would guess that we run 8 to 18 stops per inspector per day. An average of 2 to 5 are commonly finals.

"Spot check for grounding on switches and boxes being flush with wall. Check for boxes on bath vanity fixtures as well as other wall fixtures. Check panel and connections in panel. Look at equipment under the house and in attic."

Yes to all of the above [except that equipment under the house is in a full basement 90% of house and I don't need to crawl]. I remove covers thruout the house randomly. If the finish is wood, the cover comes off every single time. I read amp and OC info on appliances. I open every single panel in every single job no matter who the contractor is. I check connections, wire and breaker sizes, panel circuit labeling. And I'm starting to get bored typing about stuff that I do over and over and over again everyday so I'm going to stop there.

"remove the furnace cover to see it requires copper conductors or not"

I've never seen anybody use AL on a furnace before but we see AL on every job on 99% of service laterals and feeders and about 80% of 240v range HRs, about 80% of AC HRs that are larger than 10gauge.

Alot of my focus is looking for things that I have never or rarely ever seen before, what that might be. Most of what I see is the same thing over again, thousands of times over again.

David

 

[mpd]

jim w

I got a better idea, why even bother wiring it, just mount a weatherproof box and put a receptacle in it

 

[dnem]

In the one plug for 2 different commercial tenants AC discussion, I have been leaning back and forth. But something just occurred to me. This is very similar to the egrees lighting situation and I have numerous examples of that outcome.

You have to have exterior egrees lighting by every man door and you can't count lighting that comes from other tenants but you can count lighting supplied from "house" landlord power. Multiple tenants can count the same outside light if it provides illumination at each of their individual doors.

Unlike the AC service plug idea, this lighting situation has come up repeatedly. In the case of the AC plug, applying the same reasoning would allow a single plug if it is supplied by "house" power and within 25 feet of every AC unit in question.

For those of you that say, "Code article ?"
I think this ruling comes from our state building code, but I'm not sure.

David

 

[dnem]

You make some great points here !

You cannot tell me how good or bad my job is until you do it. Most of us Inspectors have been EC's or close to it.

I was a contractor before I was an inspector, but most contractors have never been inspectors and many think we're just "the enemy".

As for power on a structure I sight 110.7

Now I feel stupid that I didn't think of that one earlier.

I don't do cursory inspections no matter how many I have. It is not my fault there is not enough inspectors. It is my job to give the owner of the property (because isn't that who we ultimately answer to), the best inspection I possibly can and it is my fault if I don't.
JimW knows all to well the Plight we all have in Florida (and maybe all over the US), piece workers, substandard workmanship, etc.

Amen !

All you other individuals are the "Good Guys" some with a few twists and turns but believe me you don't want to see the "Bad Guys" we see them every day and it ain't pretty.

Andrew

I agree that some here don't give much thought to that fact. Us inspectors see the "bad guys" every day [or at least every week].

David

 

[dnem]

Allen,
I want to put some thought to your post so I'm not going to answer right away. But for now I just wanted to make one comment

inspections on a home have 3 phases
#1 underground if applicable
#2 rough in
#3 final
Then a meter release is issued and a meter is set.

Part of the problem is the number of inspections per job.
We have the following, as needed [which don't have to be scheduled in the order listed below]:

Residential, Full municipal utilities
1] Temp power pole
2] Service trench
3] Service main
4] Rough *
5] Final
* and, if called for, we'll even do the rough for a finished basement separately without additional inspections charges

Residential, Minimal municipal utilities
1] Temp power pole
2] Well trench
3] Septic trench
4] Service trench
5] Service main
6] Rough *
7] Final
* and separate rough basement if called for

Commercial
1] Temp power pole
2] Inside slab
3] Site lighting trenches
4] Service trench
5] Service main
6] Rough *
7] Drop ceilings final
8] Final
* and, if called for, we'll add a separate rough for hard ceilings without additional inspections charges

David

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

jim w

I got a better idea, why even bother wiring it, just mount a weatherproof box and put a receptacle in it

I like that idea.GFCI protected sticker of course.LOL

Actually with our inspection system it would pass.

 

[dnem]

Allen,
The foremost problem is systemic. Your CBO isn't "stepping up to the plate" and taking jurisdiction that he's entitled to. The power company has no jurisdiction past the service main. When the service main is ready and passes inspection, your CBO needs to straighten out the power company that they need to turn the power on and his building department handles the rest of the job. He can tell them by refusing to turn on the power without a CO they are forcing occupancy without jobs being inspected for violations of 110.7.

No power on finals.In some rare cases certain jurisdictions will allow a temp power on if it can be proven that it is needed for work to be completed but that almost takes an act of congress to do anymore.

Sometimes an act of the prosecutors office will help. Our county prosecutor is the one that pursues builders/owners that refuse to comply. In this case the prosecutor could contact the power company and inform them that they are not the building department and have no jurisdiction or training to set policy for inspections inside buildings.

The inspectors are stuck with a visual inspection ONLY.If the AFCI breaker says bedroom then they have to assume it is.If a receptacle has a sticker attached that says GFCI protected then they have to assume it is.

Ask your CBO if he thinks that the department is really doing the job it should be doing. Are you actually serving the public or just making a show of serving the public.

Communities with not 100`s,but 1000`s of new homes complete with there own malls hospitals and schools.But the amount of inspectors remain the same.I feel for these guys,I know each and every one of them and they are very good inspectors.But there hands are tied ,more inspections same amount of inspectors.I`ve seen entire blocks get finals on the same day.I`m talking not 2 or 3 homes but dozens.I know I walked each and every inspection with the inspector and 2 crews just to make sure all passed.

That situation is totally unacceptable and your CBO should be asked to correct the situation by changing policy.

Yes THEY do need more inspectors here ,but with the low pay scale they get,Lower than the average electrician makes by 20% THEY not me have a hard time finding people to fill the positions.

Our building department has 14 full time people.
3 electrical inspectors
4 structural/HVAC inspectors
1 residential plan reviewer
1 commercial plan reviewer
1 computer specialist
3 office people handling all permit and paper work
and the CBO

The department is not only selfsupporting by permit fees but makes money that's rolled into the county general fund. Like I said before we do 8 to 18 electrical inspections per inspector per day. The B/HVAC inspectors do 12 to 22 [they have alot more "quick hit" inspections than we do].

If our department can be selfsupporting, why can't yours ?
It's all a matter of properly setting the permit fees. When they first go up, alot of contractors will be complaining. But when you start delivering the goods in the form of actual comprehensive inspections, they'll get used to the fees and realize that they create a more even field to compete on. Hack contractors can't undercut everybody and slam the work in if inspectors are doing their job correctly.

David

 

[allenwayne]

David lets beat this dead horse one more time.The inspection process is what it is.The poco inspects the temp power pole and installs the meter that is depending on the poco will be used on the dwelling when the county releases the meter.Ubless its a mobile home the poco does the underground and not inspected.Then when the slab is ready the EC does the slab pipe and that will get inspected if it is done,then the EC roughs in the home,then after its all ready we trim out and call for a final.
This happens each and every day.Do I personally think the finals should be done power off,,,, NO.Are they done this way .....YES.Can it be changed ..... well not without the builders that would fight it tooth and nail......These guys build homes in 45 days so to have to wait for a meter would set back the production schedule and closings etc...Like I staed I`ve seen homes go to closing without a meter set ??????Would I buy a home without power ,NO.Is it done ,YES....