Receptacle outlet for AC equipment service

[AC\DC]

it’s not suppling a none load so 180 va?? Lol.
‘it’s a service receptacle for the hvac, I would argue since you will be working on the hvac when it’s off , your fine.

 

[winnie]

Also what current us the minisplit drawing. It is certainly less than the 20A MCA for most operating conditions.

Jon

 

[Frank DuVal]

4 breaker outdoor panel and be done with it. What HVAC tech runs a vacuum pump when the mini-split is running?

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

4 breaker outdoor panel and be done with it. What HVAC tech runs a vacuum pump when the mini-split is running?

Preach it!

 

[wwhitney]

I don't see how you could use a 35 amp OCPD on #10 conductors.

The usual way, the 240.4(G) allowance for motor circuits covers a feeder supplying a motor and other loads, something Article 430 addresses directly. So assuming the AC cable is not run through insulation (2020 320.80(A)), you can use #10 Cu at its 75C ampacity of 35A.

Then 430.24 says with a 20A MCA, the non-continuous non-motor load can be up to 15A. And if it's 15A, 430.63 says you can use a 40A breaker for the feeder.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

Any comments on the above? I'm not super familiar with Article 430, so I might have something wrong. But it seems straightforward to me.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[paulengr]

I actually don't want to use a subpanel all I plan to do is put a splice box and tap the number 10 to two separate disconnects

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He is saying treat it LIKE a subpanel. The main becomes distribution so you size the breaker accordingly. The load has its own “subpanel”. The #10 AC is a feeder, not branch.

At the HVAC you have one load so you will not be putting in anything resembling a panel. You must have a disconnect within sight of the HVAC, so your splice idea is not going to happen and pass. If you use cord and plug you need GFCI with latest Code. That’s a nightmare. Hard wired doesn’t need that crap. Standard practice is a 30/60 Adisconnect or pull fuse box right next to it. If you are already hard wiring who cares what the cord is/does. Look where the cord mounts. On most of them you can remove it and mount directly with ring lugs and a small conduit fitting with flex. That’s standard practice nearly everywhere. You can also use those fuse pull boxes but nobody likes them and they’re not so cheap anymore.

HVAC is 440 not 430. There are subtle rule differences between them. Mostly 430 is more generic (and convoluted).

 

[Sea Nile]

I know nothing, but wouldn't it be cool if you could mount a WP receptacle outlet right on the AC unit itself? Splice it on the inside of the unit.

 

[Fred B]

I know nothing, but wouldn't it be cool if you could mount a WP receptacle outlet right on the AC unit itself? Splice it on the inside of the unit.

Still doesn't get around the amperage issue, but you theoretical could so long as it is not on a removable panel. But not sure it would satisfy the intent of having the Maintenance receptacle near the AC, as it would still need to be present for installation or removal/replacement of unit. Also the receptacle not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnect (210.63)

Not sure the issue from OP regarding the service/maintenance receptacle, 210.63 only requires that it be accessible and located on the same level and within 25ft of the unit. Nothing says it must be a dedicated outlet, just one must be present. So if there is an existing outlet present within 25 ft or easily accessible to install one within that limitation, why mess with trying to fudge something onto the AC circuit. Also if this us a 1 or 2 family dwelling unit the 210.63 exception would apply and you don't even need one.

 

[nickelec]

Good morning all, this is a commercial space and there no outlet existing at all

It was a complete oversight unfortunately it happens sometimes. Guys get caught up in just following plans and forget about it.

Any way we went ahead just put a small panel in as some suggested and turned the AC circuit into a feeder.

By the way we're in NYC and still on 2008 code. With NYC amendments.

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[david luchini]

Splice it on the inside of the unit.

That would violate 210.63: The receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnecting means.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Can you comply with this

210.23(A)(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place.

The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.

 

[david luchini]

Also if this us a 1 or 2 family dwelling unit the 210.63 exception would apply and you don't even need one.

I don't see how the exception would apply to a Minisplit unit.

 

[wwhitney]

Any way we went ahead just put a small panel in as some suggested and turned the AC circuit into a feeder.

So what size breakers did you use? My reading (see above) is you could use a 40A for the 10/3 75C feeder, and a 25A for the minisplit, and a 15A for the receptacle.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Fred B]

I don't see how the exception would apply to a Minisplit unit.

The service/Maintenance receptacle, the mini split has an AC Compressor unit just like any other AC, the service receptacle that would be near the compressor would not necessarily be required in a 1 or 2 family dwelling.

 

[david luchini]

The service/Maintenance receptacle, the mini split has an AC Compressor unit just like any other AC, the service receptacle that would be near the compressor would not necessarily be required in a 1 or 2 family dwelling.

I'm not sure I follow you. 210.63 requires a service receptacle near the compressor at 1 or 2 family dwellings just as it does at non-dwellings.

 

[Fred B]

I'm not sure I follow you. 210.63 requires a service receptacle near the compressor at 1 or 2 family dwellings just as it does at non-dwellings.

2017 210.63 exception: A receptacle outlet shall not be required at one- and two- family dwelling for the service of evaporative coolers.

Oops, just realizing this is describing a different product.

 

[roger]

Could have used something similar to this AC disconnect.

 

[winnie]

Could have used something similar to this AC disconnect.

Is that this beastie?

GE 60 Amp 240-Volt Non-Fuse AC Disconnect with GFCI Receptacle TFN60RGFRCP - The Home Depot

Find the 60 amp 240-Volt 14,400-Watt Non-Fuse Metallic AC Disconnect with GFCI Receptacle TFN60RGFRCP, AC stop the flow of power to your air conditioner to ensure secure working conditions during maintenance

www.homedepot.com

From the documentation it isn't clear if the GFCI is tapped from the HVAC circuit, or if you need a separate circuit to feed the receptacle. I strongly suspect the latter.

-Jon

 

[roger]

Is that this beastie?

GE 60 Amp 240-Volt Non-Fuse AC Disconnect with GFCI Receptacle TFN60RGFRCP - The Home Depot

Find the 60 amp 240-Volt 14,400-Watt Non-Fuse Metallic AC Disconnect with GFCI Receptacle TFN60RGFRCP, AC stop the flow of power to your air conditioner to ensure secure working conditions during maintenance

www.homedepot.com

From the documentation it isn't clear if the GFCI is tapped from the HVAC circuit, or if you need a separate circuit to feed the receptacle. I strongly suspect the latter.

-Jon

I said similar, I seem to recall some having internal OCP for the receptacle. I haven't used one in ten + years.