Receptacles and suspended ceilings

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mshields said:
Roger - much appreciated. But do I understand correctly that the net effect is still the same. Since you can't plug into a receptacle above a suspended ceiling, there's no point in having one.

Correct?

Thanks,

Mike
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I have heard of receptacles adjacent to AC equipment above the hung ceiling for servicing.
 
We always installed a 4 square box also with a Caddy 512 or 512HD if you wanted extra support. You have to take a little extra time on ceilings so the thing will look right.
 
Before everyone gets the impression it is pointless to install a receptacle above a suspended ceiling, let's not forget the part preceding 400.8(5)... and that is, "Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:" So if any installation of a receptacle above a suspended ceiling is for a use permitted in 400.7(A), it is permitted!!!
 
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Smart $ said:
Before everyone gets the impression it is pointless to install a receptacle above a suspended ceiling, let's not forget the part preceding 400.8(5)... and that is, "Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:" So if any installation of a receptacle above a suspended ceiling is for an item listed in 400.7(A), it reads as being permitted!!!
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Smart, do tell where in 400.7 (A) your code book specifically permits flexible cords above a suspended ceiling.

Using your reasoning, if we are connecting any item in 400.7(A) we could use flexible cords for the following;

  • (1) As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
  • (2) To run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
  • (3) To run run through doorways, windows, or similar openings
  • (4) Attached to building surfaces
  • (5) Concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings
  • (6) Where installed in raceways, except as otherwise permitted in this Code
  • (7) Where subject to physical damage
because 400.7(A) includes them, is this correct?

If it is correct, why would the ink be wasted for 400.8?

BTW, the part preceding 400.8(5) in my code book is,

(4) Where attached to building surfaces

Exception to (4): Flexible cord and cable shall be permitted to be attached to building surfaces in accordance with the provisions of 368.56(B)
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:D


Roger
 
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roger said:
Smart, do tell where in 400.7 (A) your code book specifically permits flexible cords above a suspended ceiling.
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At the start of 400.8, and I quote again "Unless specifically permitted in 400.7..."

roger said:
Using your reasoning, if we are connecting any item in 400.7(A) we could use flexible cords for the following;

  • (1) As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
  • (2) To run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
  • (3) To run run through doorways, windows, or similar openings
  • (4) Attached to building surfaces
  • (5) Concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings
  • (6) Where installed in raceways, except as otherwise permitted in this Code
  • (7) Where subject to physical damage

because 400.7(A) includes them, is this correct?
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Not my reasoning... it IS how it reads. I admit the INTENT of 400.8 may be and most likely is different than how it reads, but 1) I didn't write it, and 2) implementation is as written. While we're on the subject, is there any erratum documentation published for the NEC?

roger said:
If it is correct, why would the ink be wasted for 400.8?
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As stated above, the INTENT.

roger said:
BTW, the part preceding 400.8(5) in my code book is,
(4) Where attached to building surfaces

Exception to (4): Flexible cord and cable shall be permitted to be attached to building surfaces in accordance with the provisions of 368.56(B)
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:D
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I apologize in advance, because I really don't mean to offend with the following question: Are you really that naive? ...or is the smilie intended to mean you are being sarcastically witty? I don't read minds, though many apparently believe I can.
 
It does say what it says, It says read 400.7 ,I did and I don't see where it is specifically permitted above a ceiling . I think it would have to specify it.

Read it like a virgin (condensed version of Charlie's rule)
 
It can be argued that 400.7 Uses Permitted is quite specific. Yes rather broadly scoped, but specific nonetheless. :D

"Read it like a virgin."
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That's exactly what I am doing :D

All in all, everyone seems to be reading 400.8 as if the phrase "Unless specifically permitted in 400.7..." is not even there!
 
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Smart,

All in all, everyone seems to be reading 400.8 as if the phrase "Unless specifically permitted in 400.7..." is not even there!
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No, what it is is that everyone else can't seem to find where "above ceilings" is specifically permitted, but your code book may be a special edition, and yes there is errata posted on the NFPA website for all the NFPA codes.

On the chance that I may be naive and not sarcastically witty, (I admit there is a good chance it may be the other way around) please answer yes or no to the following question.

Since "Pendants" are specifically permitted to be connected by flexible cord, 400.7(A)(1), you say it is legal to run this cord strapped to a structural ceiling, through a door way, then strap it to a wall for say 10 feet, then through a hole in the wall, then strap it up a wall to a suspended ceiling, then through a hole in this suspended ceiling to a receptacle located above the ceiling, is this correct?

Remember yes or no, I don't need your expert "intent" interpretation. :rolleyes:


Roger
 
Can someone point out a case where something "specifically permitted in 400.7" would override a uses not permitted in 400.8? I can't find one, and it seems like unnecessary wording.
 
more times than i can count on a commercial office floor with a suspended ceiling there are evaporator/air handler/blower units all over the place. underneath them is a drain pan for the condensation. in the pan is a small pump that is not mounted with a factory cord and plug 6 ft. these things are always plugged in to a outlet within 6 ft so no extention cord is used. so to comply with 400 you would have to cut this cord, open the pump, rewire it with flex and terminate in a disconnect.or can you just cut the male plug end off and sleeve the cord with flex, but i would think this voids the UL on the pump for altering it. you think there should be a ROP for 400 with factory flexible cords not longer than 6 ft under 20 amps in a ceiling that are ul listed and factory installed by the maker of the appliance and you can also add it must be grounding cord and outlet and a single outlet. someon please explain how in the picture the cord under the raised floor is okay but not in the ceiling. 400.8(5) where concealed by walls, FLOORS, or ceilings or located above ceilings. does it not say concealed by floors. is that cord not concealed by the floor.
 
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One of those things

One of those things

I think the underfloor is allowed only under the conditions as defined by Article 645 and is intended to address the needs of modern day computer rooms. There are other parameters that must be met per article 645 to be compliant.

With regard to the receptacles above the ceiling. I think we can all agree, it's done all the time. It nevertheless is not allowed by the code (except where exceptions apply) and probably should be a topic of discussion for the 2008 code.

The NEC may be our Bible but's it's not infalible.

Bottom line, check with the local AHJ before you install.
 
thanks for the info about article 645. i think the most important thing about cords is the 1st use not permitted which is to take the place of fixed wiring. everything else is b.s. look at (3) where run thru windows. c'mon when was the last time you ran any type of raceway, cord, cable thru a window.
 
I should have posted the commentary accompanying the graphic, so I will do it now.

1019512720_2.gif


This subsection was revised to read:


Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables cannot be used for the following:
(1) As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
(2) Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
(3) Where run through doorways, windows, or similar openings (4) Where attached to building surfaces
(5) Where concealed by walls, floors or ceilings, or located above suspended or dropped ceilings. Figure 400-2
(6) Where installed in raceways, except as otherwise permitted in this Code





​
Intent: The change clarifies that flexible cords cannot be located above a suspended ceiling. However, wiring within a raised floor is permitted, because this space is not considered a concealed space.
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Crankshaft, here are links to the recent ROP's concerning 400.8(5); 2008, (however there are none for 400.8(5) for 2008), 2005 starting on page 21, and 2002 starting on page 13

Roger
 
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crankshaft said:
more times than i can count on a commercial office floor with a suspended ceiling there are evaporator/air handler/blower units all over the place. underneath them is a drain pan for the condensation. in the pan is a small pump that is not mounted with a factory cord and plug 6 ft. these things are always plugged in to a outlet within 6 ft so no extention cord is used. so to comply with 400 you would have to cut this cord, open the pump, rewire it with flex and terminate in a disconnect.or can you just cut the male plug end off and sleeve the cord with flex, but i would think this voids the UL on the pump for altering it. you think there should be a ROP for 400 with factory flexible cords not longer than 6 ft under 20 amps in a ceiling that are ul listed and factory installed by the maker of the appliance and you can also add it must be grounding cord and outlet and a single outlet. someon please explain how in the picture the cord under the raised floor is okay but not in the ceiling. 400.8(5) where concealed by walls, FLOORS, or ceilings or located above ceilings. does it not say concealed by floors. is that cord not concealed by the floor.
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I agree with you on the condensate pump in the ceiling. IMO it should be allowed. The pump will fail long before the cord ever will.
 
infinity said:
I agree with you on the condensate pump in the ceiling. IMO it should be allowed. The pump will fail long before the cord ever will.
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What if we rub cheese on the cord and set Mickey Mouse loose above the ceiling? Can you still say the pump will fail 1st? :D

Although, I'm not sure how Romex would be any more mouse resistant, and it is sometimes allowed above the grid.

Steve
 
only gal is rat proof. ive seen mc,ac, pvc and most everything else chewed and damaged by a rat. if you want to use the grating cheese rule then everything must be in gal. the box with mud ring and t bracket is fine for a projector but for a pump in the ceiling it still would be a violation b/c the cord is still passing thru the tile.400.8(2)
 
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Does anybody have any idea why a code panel wishes to exclude cords from above a suspended ceiling ?

roger said:
The change clarifies that flexible cords cannot be located above a suspended ceiling. However, wiring within a raised floor is permitted, because this space is not considered a concealed space.
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Under the raised floor isn't considered concealed space but above a suspended ceiling is ?
That's bulls**t !!!

There's got to be an actual reason !
Why would anyone on a code panel care if there was a cord above the drop ceiling ?

David
 
crankshaft said:
only gal is rat proof. ive seen mc,ac, pvc and most everything else chewed and damaged by a rat. if you want to use the grating cheese rule then everything must be in gal. the box with mud ring and t bracket is fine for a projector but for a pump in the ceiling it still would be a violation b/c the cord is still passing thru the tile.400.8(2)
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"cord is still passing thru the tile"

OK ! I'll agree that a cord passing thru a tile shouldn't be legal. But how about a cord that begins and ends above the ceiling ?

David
 
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