Receptacles and suspended ceilings

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Smart $ said:
All proponents of the "not allowed no matter what" interpretation are pointing to references outside 400.7 and 400.8. Yet nobody seems to be addressing the main issue I put forth.
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What is the main issue you put forth?

As I understand it you feel 400.8 is meaningless as everything is permitted by 400.7?

And Mike Holt is mistaken along with the NECH, numerous inspectors and electricians?

If you could support your view I am sure you would be happy to give Roger a Yes or No answer.:)

But you see how that will paint you into a corner so you have avoided it.:p

That Roger is one sharp guy. :cool:
 
I am comming in very late to this but can tell that it is a very hot topic. I would like to ask one question before I ring in my opinion. Is there anything "specifically" permitted in 400.7? I am looking at the 2005 NEC
 
Using your reasoning, if we are connecting any item in 400.7(A) we could use flexible cords for the following;

  • (1) As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
  • (2) To run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
  • (3) To run run through doorways, windows, or similar openings
  • (4) Attached to building surfaces
  • (5) Concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings
  • (6) Where installed in raceways, except as otherwise permitted in this Code
  • (7) Where subject to physical damage
because 400.7(A) includes them, is this correct?

If it is correct, why would the ink be wasted for 400.8?

BTW, the part preceding 400.8(5) in my code book is,

:D


Roger[/QUOTE]

I don't see how you reason that out those items are not listed in 400.7
 
iwire said:
Yes.....all the items listed in 400.7.;)
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ok that is what I thought.

here is what I think I hear some stating that you can not use flex cord above a drop ceiling AT ALL. And then there is the thinking that I can use flex cord above a drop ceiling IF it is a pendant light because it is specefically permitted in 400.7.

Am I on target here?
 
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bikeindy said:
ok that is what I thought.

here is what I think I hear some stating that you can not use flex cord above a drop ceiling AT ALL. And then there is the thinking that I can use flex cord above a drop ceiling IF it is a pendant light because it is specefically permitted in 400.7.

Am I on target here?
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IMO you are on target as to the difference of opinion here.
 
Smart $ said:
So if you want any direct answers from me,
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Although we may want a direct answer from you, if the others are like me, they will not expect one (or hold their breath waiting for one) considering your track record. :D

bikeindy,
I don't see how you reason that out those items are not listed in 400.7
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I don't understand what you are stating or asking here.

Roger
 
roger said:
my point exactly, so why bring it into this thread, grasping for straws as smart has been doing?
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I was not "grasping for straws" as you put it, nor did I bring it into the thread. IF you will go back to message post #12 in this very thread, you will find someone postulated the question about the use of wall warts above the ceiling, but no one cared to respond to the issue until I brought it up again.

I tried to make the point that the discussion about the use of flexible cords above the ceiling did not apply to the use of wall warts that supply class 2 circuits, since there is no flexible cord involved. I have heard of instances where such things were prohibited using 400.8 as the basis, and I don't agree with that, either.
 
roger said:
bikeindy, I don't understand what you are stating or asking here.

Roger
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It's just that in a thread a long time back Jim from tampa tried to use 400.8 to tell me I couldn't cord a dishwasher because I would be using flex cord to replace hardwiring. I don't think $marts comments were to go to the extream to say you could wire a pendant with cord and take it through doors and walls and ceilings just because it is a pendant but that because it is a pendant it can have a cord "usually the cord for the lamp" and that could be above the ceiling. I don't think that there is any way you could cord through a wall just because it is attached to a appliance and has a wall between the appliance and the receptacle you would need to move the receptacle to the side of the wall the appliance was on. But I am not sure you couldn't plug in and install a condesation pump above a drop ceiling.
 
To test what the code says and not what I want it to say theory. I have given the question to "virgins" so far three for three that condesation pumps can be installed in the way here the majority say they can not be.
 
kbsparky said:
I was not "grasping for straws" as you put it, nor did I bring it into the thread. IF you will go back to message post #12 in this very thread, you will find someone postulated the question about the use of wall warts above the ceiling, but no one cared to respond to the issue until I brought it up again.

I tried to make the point that the discussion about the use of flexible cords above the ceiling did not apply to the use of wall warts that supply class 2 circuits, since there is no flexible cord involved. I have heard of instances where such things were prohibited using 400.8 as the basis, and I don't agree with that, either.
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I am aware of the earlier post but didn't understand the point you were trying to make, I appologize for that.

I don't agree that 400.8 prohibits this either. It is a perfect example of where an above ceiling receptacle can be used IMO.

Roger
 
iwire said:
What is the main issue you put forth?
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[size=+3]What purpose does "Unless specifically permitted in 400.7..." in 400.8 serve?[/size]

iwire said:
As I understand it you feel 400.8 is meaningless as everything is permitted by 400.7?
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I didn't write anything of the sort... In an attempt to agitate the discussion (which I did succeed on doing) I did inadvertently make a statement that was exagerrated to that degree by others, most notably Roger.

And everything is not permitted by 400.7... only the items listed.

iwire said:
If you could support your view I am sure you would be happy to give Roger a Yes or No answer.

But you see how that will paint you into a corner so you have avoided it.:p

That Roger is one sharp guy. :cool:
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Roger painted a corner that I was never in. Mind you, I'm not saying I'm in the opposite corner, just not that corner. :p back at ya!
 
Smart $ said:
What purpose does "Unless specifically permitted in 400.7..." in 400.8 serve?


I didn't write anything of the sort... In an attempt to agitate the discussion (which I did succeed on doing) I did inadvertently make a statement that was exagerrated to that degree by others, most notably Roger.

And everything is not permitted by 400.7... only the items listed.


Roger painted a corner that I was never in. Mind you, I'm not saying I'm in the opposite corner, just not that corner. :p back at ya!
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So in short, we can say you will avoid any direct questions now and in the future, correct?

Oooops, I worded that as yes or no answered question, nevermind. :D :D

Edited to remove smart's yelling as requested by Bikeindy. ;)

Roger
 
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bikeindy said:
now I have another question. Is it concealed if the drop ceiling is one of those kind you can see up into, those expanded metal kind?
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According to 400.8 as most here interpret it, it doesn't matter if it is "Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings" or not, as it is "located above suspended or dropped ceilings" [400.8(5)].
 
The following wasn't directed to me but I want to put in my 2 cents anyway.
I checked with a fellow inspector and have returned armed with his thoughts.

bikeindy said:
Using your reasoning, if we are connecting any item in 400.7(A) we could use flexible cords for the following;

  • (1) As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
  • (2) To run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
  • (3) To run run through doorways, windows, or similar openings
  • (4) Attached to building surfaces
  • (5) Concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings
  • (6) Where installed in raceways, except as otherwise permitted in this Code
  • (7) Where subject to physical damage
because 400.7(A) includes them, is this correct?
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"if we are connecting any item in 400.7(A) we could use flexible cords for the following;"
"because 400.7(A) includes them, is this correct?"

I would answer, Yes, if manufacturers instructions specifically permit it.
And 400.8(4)x says you don't even need a manufacturers OK to attach a cord from a busway to the building surface.

bikeindy said:
If it is correct, why would the ink be wasted for 400.8?
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Part of the ink in 400.8 says, "Unless specifically permitted in 400.7"
So the ink in 400.8 applies only to installations that don't fall under 400.7
Those first 5 words of 400.8 state that 400.7 "trumps" 400.8 if it is specifically listed in manufacturers instructions as being permitted.

Another example is 400.8(6) & (7) which is modified by 400.14. And you can use what's allowed in 400.14 without the manufacturers specifically saying that it's OK. You can follow that section unless the manufacturer has specific wording that excludes installing as described in 400.14.

400.8 is the other way around. You can not use a cord in an installation described in 400.8 unless the manufacturer has specific wording that includes installing as described in 400.7

The 400.8 restrictions are not absolute.

bikeindy said:
I don't see how you reason that out those items are not listed in 400.7
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I think there is something missing in this section of the post. Maybe there was supposed to be a quote that didn't make it into the final post.

David
 
bikeindy
Is it concealed if the drop ceiling is one of those kind you can see up into, those expanded metal kind?
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Nothing above a ceiling with removable panels is "concealed" per the NEC. That is why the words "or located above suspended or dropped ceilings" were added to 400.8(5) by the CMP.
Don
 
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