- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
On a dead end 3 way we use the white as a traveler. I see no issue with it as long as it is reidentified.
Red and white as travelers on a 3 or 4 way switch
- Thread starter DonnyPinFLA
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LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
The NEC makes the rules for conductor colors in cable with attention to how cables are made. We would need cables with no white conductor to never have to use white for ungrounded conductors.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Yes.
That and a certain attention to 300.20, or the choice of materials that are not ferrous.
And,,,, if you know anything about electricity at all,,,, there's really no reason to even have to do that.
JAP>
If it's a brand new installation like a new house wiring job I see no reason to ever have the switch leg and fed in the same box. Lay out the rough to have the feed at one end and switch leg at the other then you will never have an issue with the white as a hot
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Do not use white. Who cares if it's code or not. There are a trillion feet of white wire in the field using it as a neutral and I for one would want to open any box in the Country and expect white not to be a traveler.
We always used orange for travelers and switch legs until they stopped us because of the hi leg orange issue. I would say white is a no-no as more of a best practice installation.
Using both travelers as red is OK. Since I can't use orange anymore, I would be looking at what color is the travelers, but hopefully not white.
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It'd be hard to find NM with orange travelers.... You can tell this is a Resi post and they're talking about NM, not individual conductors.
JAP>
Yes. I am a pipe and wire guy. I never ran a piece of romex in my entire career other than temporary so I have a different perspective.
But, If I started running romex, I would least try to identify the whites if they were using them as hot or travelers. I build my jobs based on how a maintenance electrician would have to maintain my installations, 20 years later. He should be able to open a box and have a clue what I was thinking and how I ran the pipe or romex, not some snarled up mess that takes Einstien to figure out.
I'm a pipe and wire guy also, but, the Residential side use NM, which confines them to Black, Red and White.
They're installs are much more confusing for that reason, and, they are under much more strict rules than the commercial and industrial world is.
JAP>
They're installs are much more confusing for that reason, and, they are under much more strict rules than the commercial and industrial world is.
JAP>
Ok, if he is running romex, why is asking if he can use white? Yes, they have no choice but to re-identify. Is the answer he is looking for, how to identify a white, or, can he do it by code. He wants to know if it's legal by code. If I'm running romex, I would already know that question.
I pity these poor guys that have to run romex. We pipe Jockeys had it a lot easier.
Because on this forum there are several different calibers of electricians.
Some just starting out, some been around forever, some residential, some commercial, some industrial, and, depending on what part of it you were brought up in, makes all the difference as to just how much you may, or may not, know.
JAP>
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
I've done both. Started out in industrial, didn't touch NM aka Romex until the economy turned 6 or 7 years later. Totally new learning experience, but I am glad I did it. For the same $$, I'll take nice clean NM over pipe and wire any time, but I do like running pipe and have to say it's more fun. With the exception of re-mods, residential NM work is easy and clean. Learning how to wire lights with NM isn't rocket science. After 2 or 3 houses, it's no problem at all for the most part.
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
Re-identifying conductors is one of the requirements when used in this fashion. It isn't just a good idea, it is an explicit code requirement.
-Jon
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
In addition to the re-identification requirement, there is a separate requirement that requires a 'proper color' wire be used as the conductor actually feeding the lamp. The confusing point for the OP was if this requirement to use a _not_ re-identified wire for the supply to the lamp also applied to the travelers in a three-way circuit.
The code requirement does not say 'you must run a white wire and a 'hot color' wire' to the lamp, instead it says something about the supply but not the return from a switch. So then the confusing point being questioned is 'are the travelers part of the supply or the return'?
-Jon
I have walked in some houses with the rough done just before sheetrock and sad; Did Leonardo Da Vinci do this? Pure artwork. It's a lot harder than people think it is. The pipe guys can rip in or out wire at leisure. These guys need to get it right the first time. And, they are limited with the colors they can use. I bow to the Romex guys and give them a salute of skills that not all of us have...
Gary
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
After spending years doing both pipe and 'Romex', there is no art in running 'rope' (Romex) compared to putting in a nice looking pipe run. As the owner of two Chicago benders, I can make some pretty nice looking pipe runs. Even with a hand bender. You are overestimating the task of Romex work.
When I first went from industrial pipe and wire to doing residential work, I remember getting scolded by the boss for spending too much time making sure the holes in the rafters were perfectly lined up. He wanted fast, not pretty.
You can tell when a truck slammer does it, compared to an Electrician. The way he staples the rope, the way he brings the rope into the box that will have slack if he or somebody else in the future needs it. How the panel is dressed and identified. There is a BIG difference and I have the highest respect for those guys that are doing residential housing. They don't get enough respect for what they do. If I took my electricians that do hospitals and schools to do a house, It would never pass inspection! Well, maybe after I lost my butt in reinspection fees... The strictest code is in a house. Commercial work is easy compared to a house.
I have bent many 4" rigid 90's with a segmented bender. Just another skill that I learned. But the Romex guys have learned a skill, too.
Whats the going rate for a house that has a Main, Range, and eight? 4.00 per square these days?
Darn, I still remember that term!
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