Red and white as travelers on a 3 or 4 way switch

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Red and white as travelers on a 3 or 4 way switch

Aren’t dead-end 3-ways no longer allowed with NM? You have to include a grounded conductor, so you’d at least need another cable coming in with the neutral.

Assuming this is a 1gg box as shown in the graphic. I’ve still used dead-end 3-ways on multi-gang switch installs when I have a grounded conductor from the same circuit in the box.


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brantmacga said:
Aren’t dead-end 3-ways no longer allowed with NM? You have to include a grounded conductor, so you’d at least need another cable coming in with the neutral.

Assuming this is a 1gg box as shown in the graphic. I’ve still used dead-end 3-ways on multi-gang switch installs when I have a grounded conductor from the same circuit in the box.


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You can get NM cable with two neutrals in it now for that very reason.
 
Gary11734 said:
You can tell when a truck slammer does it, compared to an Electrician. The way he staples the rope, the way he brings the rope into the box that will have slack if he or somebody else in the future needs it. How the panel is dressed and identified. There is a BIG difference and I have the highest respect for those guys that are doing residential housing. They don't get enough respect for what they do. If I took my electricians that do hospitals and schools to do a house, It would never pass inspection! Well, maybe after I lost my butt in reinspection fees... The strictest code is in a house. Commercial work is easy compared to a house.

I have bent many 4" rigid 90's with a segmented bender. Just another skill that I learned. But the Romex guys have learned a skill, too.

Whats the going rate for a house that has a Main, Range, and eight? 4.00 per square these days?

Darn, I still remember that term!
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I learned how to install a residential panel and wire an entire house to code in a matter of a couple months.

I have done residential, commercial and industrial. The industrial guys are the artistes. It took me YEARS to be able to go into a factory and run pipe and wire and do it right. That means running the trapeze, cable tray, whatever. And learning to operate man lifts and run tuggers.

I own two real Chicago benders. I can make 'jewelry' with them. Hopefully I am preaching to the choir.

I could have you running rope like a pro in one summer. Can't say that about pipe and wire.
 
K8MHZ said:
I learned how to install a residential panel and wire an entire house to code in a matter of a couple months.

I have done residential, commercial and industrial. The industrial guys are the artistes. It took me YEARS to be able to go into a factory and run pipe and wire and do it right. That means running the trapeze, cable tray, whatever. And learning to operate man lifts and run tuggers.

I own two real Chicago benders. I can make 'jewelry' with them. Hopefully I am preaching to the choir.

I could have you running rope like a pro in one summer. Can't say that about pipe and wire.
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Sorry but what the heck is running "rope" Romex? NYC here we don't really use Romex and I never heard the term running "rope"

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K8MHZ said:
I learned how to install a residential panel and wire an entire house to code in a matter of a couple months.

I have done residential, commercial and industrial. The industrial guys are the artistes. It took me YEARS to be able to go into a factory and run pipe and wire and do it right. That means running the trapeze, cable tray, whatever. And learning to operate man lifts and run tuggers.

I own two real Chicago benders. I can make 'jewelry' with them. Hopefully I am preaching to the choir.

I could have you running rope like a pro in one summer. Can't say that about pipe and wire.
Click to expand...

K8MHZ., have you ever taken a Dale Carnegie class?
 
nickelec said:
Sorry but what the heck is running "rope" Romex? NYC here we don't really use Romex and I never heard the term running "rope"

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Rope to me is any cables running into a box, be it Romex or others... because the wires are twisted inside the outer sheath...
But I could have been taught wrong... I was also taught that Lightbulb Grease was vaseline... you put it on out door bulb bases to stop water problems..like the tailights on my old ford van..lol...and Sky Hooks were those long poles you changed out lightbulbs with from the ground..
 
The call for a neutral and ground in switch boxes has me thinking.. would we need a 4 wire with ground for deadend switch locations?

But I dont normally use Romex now, though wish it ran in conduits easier..lol.
 
Adamjamma said:
The call for a neutral and ground in switch boxes has me thinking.. would we need a 4 wire with ground for deadend switch locations?

But I dont normally use Romex now, though wish it ran in conduits easier..lol.
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I believe it’s only when a dead end switch is the only switch location within that room. Otherwise it is a 3way setup then only 1 of the 2 that within said room need to contain a neutral.
 
Adamjamma said:
Rope to me is any cables running into a box, be it Romex or others... because the wires are twisted inside the outer sheath...
Click to expand...

Interestingly, while 2-conductor NM has maybe always been parallel (not twisted) inside the sheath, now the 3-conductor stuff is being made parallel, too. Hopefully, the house builders' rope jockeys will split a lot less insulation (at least on the hot conductors) now, when using their razor knives for splitting the sheathes. The hot conductors are on the outside, and the knife can go down the middle much more easily when it's flat.
 
brantmacga said:
Aren’t dead-end 3-ways no longer allowed with NM? You have to include a grounded conductor, so you’d at least need another cable coming in with the neutral.
Click to expand...

K8MHZ said:
You can get NM cable with two neutrals in it now for that very reason.
Click to expand...

mopowr steve said:
I believe it’s only when a dead end switch is the only switch location within that room. Otherwise it is a 3way setup then only 1 of the 2 that within said room need to contain a neutral.
Click to expand...

And, in addition to these excellent points, in a pinch, with attention to 300.20, one can always run a pair of 2-conductor cables, close together or separately, resulting in two blacks and two whites in the dead-end threeway.
 
K8MHZ said:
You can get NM cable with two neutrals in it now for that very reason.
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Right.. I forgot about the creeping requirement to have a neutral everywhere to power 'smart' switches.

Recoding would permit you to use one of the neutrals in this case, or you could get '14-4' NM cable with 3 hots and a neutral. I'd go with whatever is cheaper.

I thought the 'two hots two neutrals' cable was introduced because of AFCIs that could not properly share neutrals.

-Jon
 
MAC702 said:
Just a quick look at Home Depot prices for 250-ft rolls:

14/2 : $46
14/2/2 : $142

I think I'll avoid needing it, if I can.
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Agreed, although they don't carry it here. If you're pulling that much cable, you can afford to use two rolls at the same time for the same labor.

I might consider 14/4, if there is such a thing, for certain work, like multi-function bath fans.
 
LarryFine said:
I might consider 14/4, if there is such a thing, for certain work, like multi-function bath fans.
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There definitely is. I keep a roll of #14 & #12 and throw them on the truck as needed. White, Black, Red and Blue.

Been keeping it in stock for a decade now.
 
Adamjamma said:
Rope to me is any cables running into a box, be it Romex or others... because the wires are twisted inside the outer sheath...
But I could have been taught wrong... I was also taught that Lightbulb Grease was vaseline... you put it on out door bulb bases to stop water problems..like the tailights on my old ford van..lol...and Sky Hooks were those long poles you changed out lightbulbs with from the ground..
Click to expand...

These days Lightbulb Grease is silicone-based instead. :)
 
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