If there is a permanently installed piece of millwork (bookcase, cabinets, etc)along a wall and it is more than 12' long, must a receptacle be installed in the millwork? Can it be behind a door, or must it be exposed? Can it be in the back wall of the cabinet, or must it be at the front surface of the cabinet?
residential baseboard receptacle
- Thread starter yeknom
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jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
Could be argued that you dont even need it.I suggest putting in in rear of book shelf.Nothing in nec say removable items like books or appliances cant block it from view.
Could be argued that you dont even need it.I suggest putting in in rear of book shelf.Nothing in nec say removable items like books or appliances cant block it from view.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
What about 210.52 A 2 (1) does a built in book case fall under the category of a fireplace or simular opening.
If not it can be located within a cabinet as long as no higher than 5 1/2 ft a.f.f. 210 52
Hey Jim are you ready for this weekend :roll:
What about 210.52 A 2 (1) does a built in book case fall under the category of a fireplace or simular opening.
If not it can be located within a cabinet as long as no higher than 5 1/2 ft a.f.f. 210 52
Hey Jim are you ready for this weekend :roll:
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
That said, you are free to install a receptacle or two, if the owner wants them. They can go anywhere: front of cabinet, back wall, floor in front of bookcase, whatever.
I think it does. Provided the bookcase extends from the floor upwards, I would say that it breaks the line of the wall. It can be 50 feet long and not need a receptacle in the middle.
That said, you are free to install a receptacle or two, if the owner wants them. They can go anywhere: front of cabinet, back wall, floor in front of bookcase, whatever.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
If you had a library room lined with bookcases on all walls, I believe receptacles would be required just as in any other room.
John
[ October 20, 2005, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: j_erickson ]
I disagree,
If you had a library room lined with bookcases on all walls, I believe receptacles would be required just as in any other room.
John
[ October 20, 2005, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: j_erickson ]
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
John I believe that it will actually be the Ahj`s call.A few years ago I did a monster of a home and the library was nothing but bookcases from the ceiling 16 ft to about 3 ins. aff.There was also a 2 sided fireplace.In this probably 18 X 28 room there were 2 walls that were actually walls.There were 2 floor receps.and 2 receptacles on the mentioned walls.Builder said lets see what happens Insp saw 2 receps asked what was up told him full wall to wall bookcases.He shrugged said thats alot of books and went on.I asked the question earlier to see what others here thought.
John I believe that it will actually be the Ahj`s call.A few years ago I did a monster of a home and the library was nothing but bookcases from the ceiling 16 ft to about 3 ins. aff.There was also a 2 sided fireplace.In this probably 18 X 28 room there were 2 walls that were actually walls.There were 2 floor receps.and 2 receptacles on the mentioned walls.Builder said lets see what happens Insp saw 2 receps asked what was up told him full wall to wall bookcases.He shrugged said thats alot of books and went on.I asked the question earlier to see what others here thought.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
You can't be required to put a receptacle in a wall, when there is no wall. I am sure that a library room with that many books will also wind up with a few chairs and reading lamps. Where is the owner going to plug in the lamps? Well, that's a design issue, not a code issue. The Inspector can't require a receptacle to be installed within the bookcase. There is no NEC article that says you need a receptacle for every 2 feet of shelf space.
A floor receptacle in front of the bookcase might or might not make the owner happy, but that is not an NEC concern.
You can't be required to put a receptacle in a wall, when there is no wall. I am sure that a library room with that many books will also wind up with a few chairs and reading lamps. Where is the owner going to plug in the lamps? Well, that's a design issue, not a code issue. The Inspector can't require a receptacle to be installed within the bookcase. There is no NEC article that says you need a receptacle for every 2 feet of shelf space.
A floor receptacle in front of the bookcase might or might not make the owner happy, but that is not an NEC concern.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
"You can't be required to put a receptacle in a wall, when there is no wall."
In Washington State, there is a state code rule that if a bookcase or window seat eliminates a receptacle, then it must be installed elsewhere in the same room.
"You can't be required to put a receptacle in a wall, when there is no wall."
In Washington State, there is a state code rule that if a bookcase or window seat eliminates a receptacle, then it must be installed elsewhere in the same room.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
I recently ran into this situation. The homeowners had a few lamps in front of their bookshelves. The solution?
Floor outlets. They were quite happy with it.
I recently ran into this situation. The homeowners had a few lamps in front of their bookshelves. The solution?
Floor outlets. They were quite happy with it.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
Tom so if there is a room that has book cases that line the walls except for the door and 3 ft behind the door.Lets say that the room is well 12 X 18 that would require about 6 maybe 7 receptacles to make make min code those would all have to be on that 3 ft wall
Tom so if there is a room that has book cases that line the walls except for the door and 3 ft behind the door.Lets say that the room is well 12 X 18 that would require about 6 maybe 7 receptacles to make make min code those would all have to be on that 3 ft wall
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
I don't see how a bookcase is an OPENING in the wall along the floor line.
210.52 (A)
(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
I don't see how a bookcase is an OPENING in the wall along the floor line.
210.52 (A)
(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
I would call it a "similar opening," or similar at least to the fireplace opening, if it were built into the wall, and not just placed against the wall.
We usually run conduit in the empty space between two layers of sheetrock. If the bookcase completely occupies that empty space, including the space that would otherwise have been taken up by studs, so that the bookcase serves as a supporting member for the wall and ceiling above, and because of which you could not run a conduit behind the bookcase because there is no empty space behind the bookcase, then I would say that the bookcase has broken the wall along the floor line.
I would call it a "similar opening," or similar at least to the fireplace opening, if it were built into the wall, and not just placed against the wall.
We usually run conduit in the empty space between two layers of sheetrock. If the bookcase completely occupies that empty space, including the space that would otherwise have been taken up by studs, so that the bookcase serves as a supporting member for the wall and ceiling above, and because of which you could not run a conduit behind the bookcase because there is no empty space behind the bookcase, then I would say that the bookcase has broken the wall along the floor line.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
My choice, as a customer, would be to have a receptacle in the bookcase's toe kick, but only if there was no way to have receptacles straddling the bookcase.
My choice, as a customer, would be to have a receptacle in the bookcase's toe kick, but only if there was no way to have receptacles straddling the bookcase.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
Obviously you would want to have them but I don't see how you could mandate them. Bookcases are not walls nor are they wall space.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
Scott I agree with that not mandated.In the particular senario I mentioned the builder / homeowner didn`t want any receptacles.The entire room was hand built floor to ceiling custom hand built cabintery,The ceiling was hand built raised panel ,hexagon shaped box beams.That matched the inlaid hardwood floor done in ebony and white ash in design
The room probably cost as much as the property I have
Scott I agree with that not mandated.In the particular senario I mentioned the builder / homeowner didn`t want any receptacles.The entire room was hand built floor to ceiling custom hand built cabintery,The ceiling was hand built raised panel ,hexagon shaped box beams.That matched the inlaid hardwood floor done in ebony and white ash in design
The room probably cost as much as the property I have
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
Charlie, I agree. This is not an NEC issue. Besides who would put something in front of a bookcase?
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
I might agree - why would you want receptacles and you may not need them. I feel they are required. The bookcases are forming wallspace. A railing with ballusters separating a dining area from family room also forms wallspace and requires receptacle outlets as if it were a "real" wall.
If it's not a wall, then I should be able to walk through it.
I might agree - why would you want receptacles and you may not need them. I feel they are required. The bookcases are forming wallspace. A railing with ballusters separating a dining area from family room also forms wallspace and requires receptacle outlets as if it were a "real" wall.
If it's not a wall, then I should be able to walk through it.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
But John by your logic we would be required to have receptacles in front of floor to ceiling pantry cabinets in kitchens or dining rooms etc. Would you say this is true?
But John by your logic we would be required to have receptacles in front of floor to ceiling pantry cabinets in kitchens or dining rooms etc. Would you say this is true?
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
i agree with john for the reason he stated. I do not remember kitchen walls with 12' of cabinet. it is also not likely that a small table and chair will be set in front of the kitchen cabinets as it is with the books to peruse them, as is the wont of bookish people like me who have extensive libraries with small tables and lamps. I just look like a couch potato.
paul
i agree with john for the reason he stated. I do not remember kitchen walls with 12' of cabinet. it is also not likely that a small table and chair will be set in front of the kitchen cabinets as it is with the books to peruse them, as is the wont of bookish people like me who have extensive libraries with small tables and lamps. I just look like a couch potato.
paul
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: residential baseboard receptacle
the OP says "along" the wall, not in it.
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