Residential Ground Conductor Experiment

[ptonsparky]

It goes to a fat copper clamp tap on the same #8 ground wire.

Disconnecting this #8 in the panel is too messy so I might run another ground wire to the pipe just to keep the TelCo happy, and then loosen the existing pipe clamp.
Then use my pigtail wire/hose clamp arrangement to measure the V to the now disconnected panel ground. I'll start with the 750v range.
I'll have to write a procedure to keep this straight.

The utility pole woven 1/4" metal rope is covered by a
C-shaped wooden sleeve that has long ago gone to splinters.
I already wrote PepCo about a climbing spike that was at eye level, but they can figure this one themselves.
After I connect my 100' voltmeter lead.

BTW, there is another uninsulated 1/4" bundle of #14s in the panel going to the ground busbar but the source disappears in the wire clutter. What might this come from? It doesn't leave the panel. It's not the 1/2" thick service neutral.

Pictures, or it's not there.

 

[WasGSOHM]

Pictures, or it's not there.

Can't do pix.
I paint a pic with my words.
No wonder I haven't made any money as a novelist!

 

[kwired]

Can't do pix.
I paint a pic with my words.
No wonder I haven't made any money as a novelist!

Well I'm certainly having a hard time viewing what you painted

 

[WasGSOHM]

The utility pole woven 1/4" metal rope is covered by a
C-shaped wooden sleeve that has long ago gone to splinters.

And the current in this metal rope is also about 0.2A, even with this huge transformer directly overhead and the 7 kV line above that.

OK, Kwired, I'll dig up one of my digital cameras and relearn how to use it. I still have the paper, note-filled manual for the first one.

I mostly avoid the Internet, e-mail and those handheld things which are everywhere now, but my wife has drunk the KoolAid.

How long B4 we get them implanted in our frontal lobes? Will the frequent upgrades be painful?
How to handle hardware upgrades? Through the nose? Ay, yi, yi.

 

[macmikeman]

Twenty years have gone by and we still don't know the real value of arc fault circuit breakers. The insurance companies don't seem to want to inform us of how well the devices are working based on real data on residential electrical fires as per count now vs before Afci requirements.

This claim about Insurance Company malfeasance has been disputed.

 

[WasGSOHM]

Twenty years have gone by and we still don't know the real value of arc fault circuit breakers. The insurance companies don't seem to want to inform us of how well the devices are working based on real data on residential electrical fires as per count now vs before Afci requirements.

This claim about Insurance Company malfeasance has been disputed.

Here's another pothole.

Given that you have an AFCI, what's the likelihood of a fire?
is almost never the same question as
Given that you had a fire, what's the likelihood that you have a AFCI?

You need "base rates" before answering this Bayesian question.
These base rates might be available from different sources, the truth sometimes bleeds out despite the best efforts of powerful people.
Ask the people on this forum. If you get some numbers, there are Bayes calculators on the web. The math can be confusing so I like the tree diagram.

If you do this calculation, come up with an unpopular answer, and somehow get it into the newspapers,
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you [might] win."
My experience is they try to get dirt on you. For sure I was sent a woman (a "honey trap").

Perhaps twice, the second one I was never sure of and I did not show up at the appointed place and time.

And, as I understand it, GM sent R. Nader two women; a blonde and a brunette. GM publicly apologized for this, twice.

I'm not sure "no comment" is malfeasance. If you publish your answer, make sure it is "off the record" and "on background."

It's lousy, but it's business.

 

[hbiss]

Gee, if I keep bashing AFCIs do you think the NFPA will send me a woman?

I prefer blond about 25 please.

-Hal

 

[retirede]

Gee, if I keep bashing AFCIs do you think the NFPA will send me a woman?

I prefer blond about 25 please.

-Hal

She’ll probably be representing their legal team carrying a cease and desist order.

 

[ptonsparky]

Gee, if I keep bashing AFCIs do you think the NFPA will send me a woman?

I prefer blond about 25 please.

-Hal

Don't forget to take extra medication.

 

[WasGSOHM]

Gee, if I keep bashing AFCIs do you think the NFPA will send me a woman?

I prefer blond about 25 please.

-Hal

OMG, I believe you have just "solicited a bribe", same as if you asked for liquor or fast cars or a "favor". . .

I might not survive the blonde so I'll take the car.

 

[gar]

201226-0911 ET

WasGSOHM:

I have to complement you on your correct use of the ENGLISH/US units of measurements for torque, virtually no one on this forum does.

On determining the approximate impedance, assume resistance, of your neutral and hot severice conductors.

First, assume all three are of equal material and diameter. Therefore, of same resistance.
Second, assume transformer impedance of zero.
Third, assume that loading 1/2 of the secondary has no effect on the voltage from the other half of the secondary.

Use a 1500 W 120 V space heater as a test load, and a digital meter of 0.1 V resolution on a scale capable of reading 120 V, like at least 300 V. At 1500 W and 120 V the heater calculates to be 12.5 ohms. Doesn't matter, but you need to know the value after warmup. The voltage will jump around a small amount. Just get the loaded and unloaded readings when the voltage in both cases is within +/- 0.1 V. We are using resistance and voltage to determine current.

Make measurements at the main panel directly on the service lines coming into the main panel.

First, read the no load voltage on the phase being loaded between the hot wire and the neutral wire. Then, load the phase with the heater and allow to stabilize. Read the voltage change. Calculate the resistance. This is the total resistance of the hot and neutral service lines, and including the power company meter. Note, with loading the meter reading drops about 0.8 V.

Second, move the voltmeter hot lead to the other phase with the voltmeter neutral lead unchanged. Repeat the same experiment. Here you should see the meter reading increase by about 0.4 V.

Think out what all this means.

You may also want to do the same test, but change the load to the other phase.

.

 

[WasGSOHM]

201226-0911 ET

WasGSOHM:

I have to complement you on your correct use of the ENGLISH/US units of measurements for torque, virtually no one on this forum does.

On determining the approximate impedance, assume resistance, of your neutral and hot severice conductors.

First, assume all three are of equal material and diameter. Therefore, of same resistance.
Second, assume transformer impedance of zero.
Third, assume that loading 1/2 of the secondary has no effect on the voltage from the other half of the secondary.

Use a 1500 W 120 V space heater as a test load, and a digital meter of 0.1 V resolution on a scale capable of reading 120 V, like at least 300 V. At 1500 W and 120 V the heater calculates to be 12.5 ohms. Doesn't matter, but you need to know the value after warmup. The voltage will jump around a small amount. Just get the loaded and unloaded readings when the voltage in both cases is within +/- 0.1 V. We are using resistance and voltage to determine current.

Make measurements at the main panel directly on the service lines coming into the main panel.

First, read the no load voltage on the phase being loaded between the hot wire and the neutral wire. Then, load the phase with the heater and allow to stabilize. Read the voltage change. Calculate the resistance. This is the total resistance of the hot and neutral service lines, and including the power company meter. Note, with loading the meter reading drops about 0.8 V.

Second, move the voltmeter hot lead to the other phase with the voltmeter neutral lead unchanged. Repeat the same experiment. Here you should see the meter reading increase by about 0.4 V.

Think out what all this means.

You may also want to do the same test, but change the load to the other phase.

.

Thanks, Gar. I'll have to chew on this for a while.

My latest version of this Don Quixote crusade is to use a 500 ohm, 7W resistor to minimally disrupt the ground path.
I'll gin up a make-before-break composite switch with wall switches and jumpers.
The TelCo ground is going to get its own wire to the pipe.

Am I painting a pic, here???

 

[gar]

201226-1111 EST

WasGSOHM:

Some measurements on my system.

From memory my transformer neutral point, power company ground rod at the pole, to neutral bar in main panel is about 0.04 ohms, my service wire is probably #4 or #6.

The pole ground rod might have a resistance of 10 to 20 ohms. The resistance of my ground rod is likely less than 1 ohm, it is about 150 ft of 1 1/4" copper water line. So estimated conductive path via earth from pole to main panel is about 20 ohms.

Using a Fluke Hall device current probe I measure possibly 30 mA change in this ground water pipe from the 12 A change in load current. The ratio of 20 to 0.04 is 500. The current ratio is 12/0.03 = 400. Considering the measurement levels this is a good correlation between theory and field measurements.

.

 

[RumRunner]

Delving into the fray.


Here's another pothole.

Given that you have an AFCI, what's the likelihood of a fire?
is almost never the same question as
Given that you had a fire, what's the likelihood that you have a AFCI?

Those are items in the analyses and correlation of events (Bayesian Theorem) that may or may not occur at all in your lifetime.
The probabilistic incident to include the above scenario is then moot.
It is just an insurance in the simplest term.

Do you apply Bayesian Algorithm when you buy Auto Insurance?
Granted, insurers would check driving record before offering coverage. . . but. . . .

You need "base rates" before answering this Bayesian question.
These base rates might be available from different sources, the truth sometimes bleeds out despite the best efforts of powerful people.
Ask the people on this forum. If you get some numbers, there are Bayes calculators on the web. The math can be confusing so I like the tree diagram.

Yes indeed--it becomes even more confusing when someone adds irrelevant argument into the discussion. IGNORATIO ELENCHI.
Although it provides a respite from boredom-- brought on by the doldrums of being locked-down indoors in your own home.

If you do this calculation, come up with an unpopular answer, and somehow get it into the newspapers,
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you [might] win."
My experience is they try to get dirt on you. For sure I was sent a woman (a "honey trap").
Perhaps twice, the second one I was never sure of and I did not show up at the appointed place and time.

Throughout ancient history-- women's participation in maintaining order cannot be ignored.
Jezebel's participation in controlling unruly Jews in the Kingdom of Israel for example.

The same thing with the reign of the Egyptian Queen Cleopatra down to Queen Mary the First when she persecuted Protestants.. . . some were even burned at the stake.
She is best remembered by barflies mostly for the word “Bloody Mary”.

What more could you ask for if you were king.
They could be a members of your harem and even be important decision makers.
Someone could double as honey trap and a fierce, gorgeous "wonder woman".

And, as I understand it, GM sent R. Nader two women; a blonde and a brunette. GM publicly apologized for this, twice.

I prefer to stay away from this "blonde and brunette" misogynistic overtones.
I'll let GM live the glory of their big time boo boo.

I'm not sure "no comment" is malfeasance. If you publish your answer, make sure it is "off the record" and "on background."

It is impossible to make a statement and be a non-malfeasance speaker and expect "off the record" comments if you publish it.
Not in this age of the internet.
Once you publish something it lives in perpetuity.

It's lousy, but it's business.

 

[hbiss]

She’ll probably be representing their legal team carrying a cease and desist order.

Nahh. She'll probably be useless and cost me money... just like AFCIs.

-Hal

 

[retirede]

Nahh. She'll probably be useless and cost me money... just like AFCIs.

-Hal

Isn’t that what I said?

 

[macmikeman]

Here's another pothole.

Given that you have an AFCI, what's the likelihood of a fire?
is almost never the same question as
Given that you had a fire, what's the likelihood that you have a AFCI?

You need "base rates" before answering this Bayesian question.
These base rates might be available from different sources, the truth sometimes bleeds out despite the best efforts of powerful people.
Ask the people on this forum. If you get some numbers, there are Bayes calculators on the web. The math can be confusing so I like the tree diagram.

If you do this calculation, come up with an unpopular answer, and somehow get it into the newspapers,
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you [might] win."
My experience is they try to get dirt on you. For sure I was sent a woman (a "honey trap").

Perhaps twice, the second one I was never sure of and I did not show up at the appointed place and time.

And, as I understand it, GM sent R. Nader two women; a blonde and a brunette. GM publicly apologized for this, twice.

I'm not sure "no comment" is malfeasance. If you publish your answer, make sure it is "off the record" and "on background."

It's lousy, but it's business.

I'm misunderstanding a teeny small part of your lengthy post. GM. I drive a GM SAVANA . It's a wonderful thing, 6.0 liter engine, 8 cylinders, and fitted out with the same American Steel shelving package as my trade in cause they told me to take the old bird home , rip out the shelves and then drive it back to the dealer, even though we already signed all the papers and they had my check in their paws. Pretty good huh?

 

[macmikeman]

Follow up to my last post: It took two days to get her all gutted out , the weather was pretty hot , like usual.. Two more to fit it all back in the new beauty queen of a van I bought..... I live a charmed life...

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Twenty years have gone by and we still don't know the real value of arc fault circuit breakers. The insurance companies don't seem to want to inform us of how well the devices are working based on real data on residential electrical fires as per count now vs before Afci requirements.

This claim about Insurance Company malfeasance has been disputed.

Given the small number of new dwelling units constructed vs the total number of dwelling units, and the fact that 85% of the dwelling unit fires that are said to be of electrical origin occur in dwelling units that are over 20 years old, it will be many decades before there is any statistically valid information on the effectiveness of AFCIs reducing dwelling unit electrical fires.

 

[macmikeman]

Given the small number of new dwelling units constructed vs the total number of dwelling units, and the fact that 85% of the dwelling unit fires that are said to be of electrical origin occur in dwelling units that are over 20 years old, it will be many decades before there is any statistically valid information on the effectiveness of AFCIs reducing dwelling unit electrical fires.

Great answer Don, but have you travelled away from your area of the country lately? Like Florida or Arizona or Texas? The amount of new housing units since 1990 is astounding, especially Florida. They ought to be able to show something at least by using those location metrics.

This also leads me to another question. Is there a rated lifespan for an Arc Fault circuit breaker? Will they even be effective after reaching the 20 year mark? Is there any mean time to failure schedule to look at published for the major brands?