residential wall space

Status
Not open for further replies.
Smart $ said:
Take a stairway opening in the floor, in the middle of a room, and close the opening in the floor. The railing would likely be removed. So not a wall and not a room divider.

Now if you have a stairway opening in the floor, against a wall of the room. A railing is required towards the room interior. Still neither a wall nor a room divider. Should the required wall receptacles be put in the wall on the far side of the stairway, or in the floor beside the railing?
Click to expand...

Changing changes the rules.

If I add a door between two receptacles 12' apart do I have to add a receptacle? Maybe, maybe not.

Where is room divider in the code?
 
jxofaltrds said:
TY. Dividers.

(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers, such as
freestanding bar-type counters or railings

Wait what's that part in blue?:blink:
Click to expand...

What exactly IS a bar-type railing?:lol:


Actually....MAYBE a bar type railing would be found DIVIDING parts of a room (bar/dance floor)....and is not a (don't fall over the edge) safety device??
 
Last edited:
jxofaltrds said:
(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers, such as
freestanding bar-type counters or railings

Wait what's that part in blue?:blink:
Click to expand...
I don't need to know or care about the part in blue. I don't have to read that far. As soon as I get to the part in red, I can stop reading. We don't have a room divider, so the rest of the rule is irrelevant.

 
got it thanks

got it thanks

I think I get the just of it. The rail doesn't "divide the room" therefor no receps required by code. Not to open another can of worms but even if you put a floor box in as mentioned by someone. They don't count in the count lol... whew. Thanks again.
 
So is a room defined on its purpose? If so a kitchen pennisula is the dividing line to the dining/livingroom -- different wiring methods in either area apply -- a railing is a required gaurd dividng the stairwell from the room -- Some of the post insinuate the dividing concept is that you cannot access the other area in which I disagree -- If you want to say the wall line is changed by replacing the railing with a 2x4 36" wall so be it but the its purpose is still as a gaurd rail. General recept locations are mean to be placed for convienent use.
 
greenjourneyman said:
I think I get the just of it. The rail doesn't "divide the room" therefor no receps required by code. Not to open another can of worms but even if you put a floor box in as mentioned by someone. They don't count in the count lol... whew. Thanks again.
Click to expand...

Receptacles are required. We use floor receptacles all the time to satisfy this requirement.

(3) Floor Receptacles. Receptacle outlets in floors shall
not be counted as part of the required number of receptacle
outlets unless located within 450 mm (18 in.) of the wall.

Please note that railings are not exempt.

(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall
include the following:

This just shows other examples of what a wall could be.

We call the railing a 'wall' because it divides two spaces. Stairs and "or area of
dwelling units,"
 
jxofaltrds said:
Receptacles are required.
Click to expand...
Mike, I continue to disagree. The essence of the issue is whether the railing constitutes a fixed room divider. I say that it does not, because it does not divide a room, and it does not separate two rooms from each other.
jxofaltrds said:
(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
This just shows other examples of what a wall could be.
Click to expand...
The question of what is, and what is not a ?wall? is meaningless. What is at issue is what constitutes ?wall space,? in the context of 210.52(A)(2).
jxofaltrds said:
We call the railing a 'wall' because it divides two spaces.
Click to expand...
We don?t call it a wall. We call it a railing. And it does not divide two spaces. It acts as a safety barrier between levels.

The code says that fixed room dividers shall count as ?wall space.? It then gives two examples of what could serve as fixed room dividers. A railing can do that job. But that does not imply that every railing does, in fact, do that job. Some animals are cats, but not all animals are cats. Some railings are fixed room dividers, but not all railings are fixed room dividers.
 
charlie b said:

Mike, I continue to disagree. The essence of the issue is whether the railing constitutes a fixed room divider. I say that it does not, because it does not divide a room, and it does not separate two rooms from each other. So to divide a room you wall has to be floor to ceiling with a door?

The question of what is, and what is not a ?wall? is meaningless. What is at issue is what constitutes ?wall space,? in the context of 210.52(A)(2).
We don?t call it a wall. We call it a railing. And it does not divide two spaces. It acts as a safety barrier between levels. Define fix room divider per code

The code says that fixed room dividers shall count as ?wall space.? It then gives two examples of what could serve as fixed room dividers. A railing can do that job. But that does not imply that every railing does, in fact, do that job. Some animals are cats, but not all animals are cats. Some railings are fixed room dividers, but not all railings are fixed room dividers.
Click to expand...
So, some railings count as wall space
 
mwm1752 said:
So, some railings count as wall space[/FONT][/SIZE]
Click to expand...

That is true.

We are arguing one example.

A room divider does not mean that you divide a room. It divides 'rooms' or areas.

Again wall spaces is NOT limited to the examples. Says "include" not limited to.

(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall
include the following:

A railing can be "wall space". That does not mean the it is a wall in the truest sense of the word. What if it was drywall?
 
"Space created by fixed room dividers, such as freestanding bar-type counter or railings, is considered wall space for the purpose of applying these receptacle outlet requirements at dwelling units. Railings create wall spaces where electrical appliances such as televisions, stereos or luminaires are commonly located. Floor receptacles are a common solution for railings and banister locations where receptacle outlets are required to be placed [NEC210.52(A)(3)]."

From:
http://www.iaei.org/blogpost/890108/158695/Dwelling-Units--No-Big-Deal-Right
 
jxofaltrds said:
"Space created by fixed room dividers, such as freestanding bar-type counter or railings, is considered wall space for the purpose of applying these receptacle outlet requirements at dwelling units. Railings create wall spaces where electrical appliances such as televisions, stereos or luminaires are commonly located. Floor receptacles are a common solution for railings and banister locations where receptacle outlets are required to be placed [NEC210.52(A)(3)]."

From:
http://www.iaei.org/blogpost/890108/158695/Dwelling-Units--No-Big-Deal-Right
Click to expand...

More food for thought: If the railing simply surrounded a skylight/atrium type opening to the floor below rather than surrounding a staircase, I would say that it created wall space just as a peninsula or free standing counter would.
 
jxofaltrds said:
"Space created by fixed room dividers, such as freestanding bar-type counter or railings, is considered wall space for the purpose of applying these receptacle outlet requirements at dwelling units. Railings create wall spaces where electrical appliances such as televisions, stereos or luminaires are commonly located. Floor receptacles are a common solution for railings and banister locations where receptacle outlets are required to be placed [NEC210.52(A)(3)]."

From:
http://www.iaei.org/blogpost/890108/158695/Dwelling-Units--No-Big-Deal-Right
Click to expand...

More food for thought: If the railing simply surrounded a skylight/atrium type opening to the floor below rather than surrounding a staircase, I would say that it created wall space just as a peninsula or free standing counter would.
By including bannister, the comment in the link certainly presumes that that writer thought that staircases came into play too. Most cases where a bannister guards a drop to the floor below are found in upstairs hallways, which allows avoiding the receptacle requirements on that side.
 
jxofaltrds said:
... Railings create wall spaces where electrical appliances such as televisions, stereos or luminaires are commonly located. ...
Click to expand...
I'll agree with this interpretation... to a degree.

Let's see if you can pick out which. Simply answer yes for recept's req'd or no if not req'd...

1.
earth-leaf-on-site.jpg




2.
404.jpg



3.
gl_37_sm.jpg



4.
hr3050095-6.jpg



5.
GrapMotifRailing.JPG



6.
5222bbf501ff3a24_1076-w503-h376-b0-p0--home-design.jpg



7.
Inexpensive-Molding-Pretty-Home-Yellow-Ottoman-7.jpg



8.
upstairs%20banisters.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top