residential wall space

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mwm1752 said:
So to divide a room you wall has to be floor to ceiling with a door?
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I did not say that, and I would not agree with that. To qualify as ?wall space,? a railing would have to comprise a ?fixed room divider.? That brings us to,
mwm1752 said:
Define fix room divider per code
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The code doesn?t give us that definition. So we are left to use whatever the English language or standard industry usage have to offer. To me, a ?fixed room divider? would have to either divide a space into two rooms, or at least into two or more distinct areas of the same room, or it would have to separate one room from another. A safety barrier between floor levels does neither of those things. That is why I do not consider it to be ?wall space,? in the context of 210.52(A).
mwm1752 said:
So, some railings count as wall space
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I said so, and I meant it. My point, however, was more along the lines of ?some don?t.? Show me a dining room and a living room with a 4 foot high railing between them, and I will call the railing ?wall space,? and require receptacles. Show me a second floor overlook with a four foot railing to prevent someone falling from the second floor to the first floor, and I will not call it ?wall space,? and I would not require receptacles.
 
charlie b said:
I did not say that, and I would not agree with that. To qualify as ?wall space,? a railing would have to comprise a ?fixed room divider.? That brings us to, The code doesn?t give us that definition. So we are left to use whatever the English language or standard industry usage have to offer. To me, a ?fixed room divider? would have to either divide a space into two rooms, or at least into two or more distinct areas of the same room, or it would have to separate one room from another. A safety barrier between floor levels does neither of those things. That is why I do not consider it to be ?wall space,? in the context of 210.52(A).
I said so, and I meant it. My point, however, was more along the lines of ?some don?t.? Show me a dining room and a living room with a 4 foot high railing between them, and I will call the railing ?wall space,? and require receptacles. Show me a second floor overlook with a four foot railing to prevent someone falling from the second floor to the first floor, and I will not call it ?wall space,? and I would not require receptacles.
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I mostly agree. As far as the overlook goes, I believe it depends on the width of the area. If it's "useable" space I believe it requires receptacles. If it's really only a hallway than it does not. That's why I requested the OP's room dimensions many posts ago.
 
mjf said:
I mostly agree. As far as the overlook goes, I believe it depends on the width of the area. If it's "useable" space I believe it requires receptacles. If it's really only a hallway than it does not. That's why I requested the OP's room dimensions many posts ago.
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We can't agree on a wall space. Start a new thread on "useable". :D

Could apply to a hallway.

(H) Hallways. In dwelling units, hallways of 3.0 m (10 ft)
or more in length shall have at least one receptacle outlet.
As used in this subsection, the hallway length shall be
considered the length along the centerline of the hallway
without passing through a doorway.

(I) Foyers. Foyers that are not part of a hallway in accordance
with 210.52(H) and that have an area that is greater
than 5.6 m2 (60 ft2) shall have a receptacle(s) located in
each wall space 900 mm (3 ft) or more in width and unbroken
by doorways, floor-to-ceiling windows, and similar
openings.
 
jxofaltrds said:
We can't agree on a wall space. Start a new thread on "useable". :D

Could apply to a hallway.

(H) Hallways. In dwelling units, hallways of 3.0 m (10 ft)
or more in length shall have at least one receptacle outlet.
As used in this subsection, the hallway length shall be
considered the length along the centerline of the hallway
without passing through a doorway.

(I) Foyers. Foyers that are not part of a hallway in accordance
with 210.52(H) and that have an area that is greater
than 5.6 m2 (60 ft2) shall have a receptacle(s) located in
each wall space 900 mm (3 ft) or more in width and unbroken
by doorways, floor-to-ceiling windows, and similar
openings.
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Unfortunately, the NEC does not specify the maximum width of a residential hallway. If the plans call a 10ft wide by 30 foot long area a hallway....is it a hallway only requiring 1 receptacle outlet?

As far as your comment "Could apply to a hallway"....yes, a receptacle outlet is often required, but that has nothing to do with railings or dividers or all the other fun stuff we've all been hashing out:D

Please don't start a thread on useable until this thread peters out:lol:
 
mjf said:
Unfortunately, the NEC does not specify the maximum width of a residential hallway. If the plans call a 10ft wide by 30 foot long area a hallway....is it a hallway only requiring 1 receptacle outlet?
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Could have 3 if the hallway was broken by 2 doorways.

As far as your comment "Could apply to a hallway"....yes, a receptacle outlet is often required, but that has nothing to do with railings or dividers or all the other fun stuff we've all been hashing out:D
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Railings, dividers and 'walls' sometimes make it a hallway. Other wise it maybe part of a room and have (A) apply.

Please don't start a thread on useable until this thread peters out:lol:
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"If it's "useable" space I believe it requires receptacles"
 
We always placed outlets in those areas . If they were not on the plan I would try to get an extra.
 
GoldDigger said:
For a hallway to be "broken" by two doorways in the sense of the rule on hallways, I think one would have to pass through the doorways to continue down the hallway. JMHO.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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I agree:

(H) Hallways. In dwelling units, hallways of 3.0 m (10 ft)
or more in length shall have at least one receptacle outlet.
As used in this subsection, the hallway length shall be
considered the length along the centerline of the hallway
without passing through a doorway.
 
Smart$,

In pictures 2,3,4 & Maybe 8 , if the railings were a 2x4 pony or full height wall, would you require receptacle or not?
 
 
jxofaltrds said:
1 yes no
2 yes no upper side, yes lower side
3 yes no upper side, yes lower side
4 hall side no no
4 room side yes maybe
5 short yes no
5 long maybe no
6 yes yes
7 yes yes
8 maybe no
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In your consideration of my answers, also take into consideration that 210.52(A)(2(1) says in part "unbroken along the floor line by doorways and similar openings, fireplaces, and fixed cabinets". Open-type railings, even when considered a room divider, are broken along the floor line.
 
mjf said:
Unfortunately, the NEC does not specify the maximum width of a residential hallway. If the plans call a 10ft wide by 30 foot long area a hallway....is it a hallway only requiring 1 receptacle outlet?
Click to expand...

jxofaltrds said:
Could have 3 if the hallway was broken by 2 doorways
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Could have none required.:thumbsup:

9'-11" hallway to first doorway, 4" wide (framing and drywall) doorway, 9'-11" hallway to second doorway, 4" wide doorway, 9'-6" left to make the total length of 30' :angel:
 
mjf said:
Could have none required.:thumbsup:

9'-11" hallway to first doorway, 4" wide (framing and drywall) doorway, 9'-11" hallway to second doorway, 4" wide doorway, 9'-6" left to make the total length of 30' :angel:
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If the hallway was 10 feet wide,as originally suggested, those are either really big doors or the hallways are just really small bedrooms that you walk through to get to the next one. :)
I don't think that we would normally call such a thing one hallway unless the doorways were just there for fire doors or similar that would normally be wide open.

I have seen old single family houses converted to multiple apartments that had occasional hallways like that though. They also turned corners a lot. :)
 
edward said:
Smart$,

In pictures 2,3,4 & Maybe 8 , if the railings were a 2x4 pony or full height wall, would you require receptacle or not?
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If a railing is essentially built same as normal wall construction, then yes it is wall space.

There's no such thing as a full height wall-type railing. That would be a wall, outright.
 
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still here

still here

I tried sending better pics many posts ago but failed technically. I couldn't keep up with the posts at work so didn't take exact measurements. Sounds like the next code cycle needs to expand on this and may add some definitions. Probably have the AHJ decide but would still like a reference able resolution for future. Thanks for all feed back I'm only 5th year can't get pics on for some reason
 
Last edited:
still here

still here

I tried sending better pics many posts ago but failed technically. I couldn't keep up with the posts at work so didn't take exact measurements. Sounds like the next code cycle needs to expand on this and may add some definitions. Probably have the AHJ decide but would still like a reference able resolution for future. Thanks for all feed back I'm only 5th year
 
mjf said:
Sounds like a jail cell to me:jawdrop:.......and no receptacle is required!!!!!:angel::D:D
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Where in the good book is the exception for jail cells?

Would need some place to plug a computer, tv, or lava lamp into............
 
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