al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Residential Wiring with nonmetallic sheathed cable (Romex)
- Thread starter gsassari
- Start date
- Status
But Installation #1 needs 4 switch legs and one neutral... 5 conductors plus ground.
what is the danger of connecting the neutrals together?
300.20 says that "All phase conductors shall be grouped together."
One 14/3 has two switch legs and a neutral, all grouped together in the same cable.
The other 14/3 has two switch legs and a neutral, all grouped together in the same cable.
As long as the neutral is in the same cable as the hot(s), it is compliant. The code doesn't address an additional available path.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it (unless proven wrong)
There is no danger.
One 14/3 has two switch legs and a neutral, all grouped together in the same cable.
The other 14/3 has two switch legs and a neutral, all grouped together in the same cable.
As long as the neutral is in the same cable as the hot(s), it is compliant. The code doesn't address an additional available path.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it (unless proven wrong)
There is no danger.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
This phrase doesn't apply, here.
Look at the heading for 300.20. 300.20 is concerned with metal raceway and metal enclosures.
The question in the OP is about NM and nonmetallic enclosures (with the exception of the jbox on the four switch leg fan).
In the fan jbox 300.20(B) allows the grouping to occur with the use of cuts.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
One 14/3 and one 14/2 will work however if they are not run together then you may some unwanted emf issues. For some reason the NEC is not concerned about this. Running the cables close together will eliminate the EMF's. Others have stated the issue with the two ko's in a metal enclosure.
Again the NEC allows this installation however if they are not run together it will create unwanted EMF's.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
As Al said earlier, 310.4 says you can not parallel (electrically joined at both ends) conductors smaller than 1/0.
I am lost.
The questions in th OP were:
and
I can't find any question re: a single conductor and cuts/notches or whatever.
I think you guys are just trying to confuse the poor guy
Well....I wish he would have just said that
I stopped reading at "conductors larger than 1/0". I don't think that this scenario was the intention of the code, but I now see what you are talking about .
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- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
jeremysterling
Senior Member
- Location
- Austin, TX
Not real dangerous, just a code violation (sorry wife just mopped floor and I cant get to the code book for the reference). I try to avoid parallel conductors under 1/0AWG.
Who puts the 7W night light on a switch leg?
Factors not mentioned
Factors not mentioned
Hi gsassari,
Specialization in residential takes on unique exceptions and require more consideration that affects the NEC rule portion of the total construction picture. (I.e. energy & mechanical codes) Installation #2 using a 14-3 and 14-2 is acceptable under the [404.2(A)] switch loop exception. This is done by dead-ending both cables and painting the common white insulators black at the remote 2gg. The power 2gg switch box feeds the ceiling fan & light with a 14-3 cable.
The Installation #1 bathroom example needs additional information. Besides the NEC code concerns, knowing the 3w/sf, operable window and vanity lighting will affect the realistic electrical hookups. The bathroom will require both artificial light and mechanical venting in parallel per the IRC R303.3 requirement. This would remove one conductor thus making the 5 conductor question mute. Mentioning the heat size will also help resolve load capacity of the circuits. Usually a combined 250w lighting/IR clear lamp saves additional energy consumption in lieu a resistant element type load. Energy conservation codes (I.e. CA, WA, NY, FL...etc) also dictate Sensor and timer functions that will change your installation setup as it is stated.
These type of considerations are overlooked on occasion that plan specifications would best save cost to the project.
Welcome to the MH forum. rbj
Factors not mentioned
Hi gsassari,
Specialization in residential takes on unique exceptions and require more consideration that affects the NEC rule portion of the total construction picture. (I.e. energy & mechanical codes) Installation #2 using a 14-3 and 14-2 is acceptable under the [404.2(A)] switch loop exception. This is done by dead-ending both cables and painting the common white insulators black at the remote 2gg. The power 2gg switch box feeds the ceiling fan & light with a 14-3 cable.
The Installation #1 bathroom example needs additional information. Besides the NEC code concerns, knowing the 3w/sf, operable window and vanity lighting will affect the realistic electrical hookups. The bathroom will require both artificial light and mechanical venting in parallel per the IRC R303.3 requirement. This would remove one conductor thus making the 5 conductor question mute. Mentioning the heat size will also help resolve load capacity of the circuits. Usually a combined 250w lighting/IR clear lamp saves additional energy consumption in lieu a resistant element type load. Energy conservation codes (I.e. CA, WA, NY, FL...etc) also dictate Sensor and timer functions that will change your installation setup as it is stated.
These type of considerations are overlooked on occasion that plan specifications would best save cost to the project.
Welcome to the MH forum. rbj
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al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
In my mind, the question is raised by noting that the fan jbox is made of metal. When running two cables, the neutral is going to be in only one cable. All that's necessary to create the situation addressed in 300.20(B) is to turn on only one of the switched legs to the fan/light/heat/night light, a switched leg in the other cable. . . then there are individual conductors going through the metal jbox KOs.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Just run 2 - 14/3 nm cables and all those troubles go away. Now if they only made those darn jb's big enough to meet code life would be wonderful. :smile:
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I do. For anyone that wants to pay me to do it.
I also put them on a switch, otherwise it is on all the time. Most of the time I don't even connect the nite light.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I agree with you, Don put in a good proposal to change that section but it was shot down.
- Location
- Massachusetts
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I'm sad to hear that. I mutter and grumble about 310.4 every time I contemplate a Chicago threeway.
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