Resistance Cube

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Re: Resistance Cube

But Rattus, we live in the real universe. :D

Actually the shape at the point is only undertood to be a statistical probability.

The calculus only describes reality if it's describing reality.

A copper atom is 256 picometers across. Don't forget that the atoms have a stacking geometry.

Now let's see the K of a copper atom. :cool:
 
Re: Resistance Cube

Originally posted by physis:
Actually the shape at the point is only undertood to be a statistical probability.

The calculus only describes reality if it's describing reality.
In my best Forest Gump voice,

I like shiny things

You guys are way above my comprehension. :eek:
 
Re: Resistance Cube

I'll put it another way.

Rattus is considering an ideal perfect cube. But because he also wants it to be made of copper he can't have that as far anyone knows.

If you even could make a perfectly regular cube. When you look very closely at it the edges and corners (and everything else) get all fuzzy.

So he just can't have the perfect point that he wants. :(
 
Re: Resistance Cube

Sam, indeed we do live in a real, fuzzy, chaotic world, but this is a hypothetical question. It is a perfect cube with infinitely sharp corners. There are no atoms--just solid material with the resisitivity of copper.

I have clumsily made some ball bonds with 1 mil gold wire, but that is infinitely too much area.
 
Re: Resistance Cube

I'm sorry Rattus.

I can't condone this behavior. :)

You're not allowed to woop out calculus and then act all innocent and forget about it when you're confronted with some minor difficulties.

The changes you have to make to adjust your model are minimal.
 
Re: Resistance Cube

A cube made of copper is hypothetical! :D

I think I've said "indeed" on this forum "4" times now.

And I only say it when I think something is just plain too silly. :p
 
Re: Resistance Cube

By Rattus:

There are no atoms--just solid material with the resisitivity of copper
That?s probably why these poor copper atoms were just hanging out on some electrode in some electrolysis tank somewhere.
PictureofCopperAtoms.jpg

Out of work because they?ve been replaced by actors with pointy hats. (These atoms are not bonded in the form of a lattice by the way, I tried, but couldn?t find an image of that)

So anyway, as far as I can tell, the difficulty in answering the question is, amusingly, where to start.

That's the point of the cube.

Because that's the interface. And for all the other obvious reasons.

The bad news is, like it or not, there is a solution. The other bad news is that it relies heavily on detail and accuracy. The good news is that after the first two layers (I think I can keep it to two layers) of atoms the rest of it can be deduced using macro-math and tape measures again, and, the accuracy requirements shouldn't be atypical from that point to the base of the pyramid.

The pyramid I'm refering to is the three sided one at either end of the cube. The cube 'll be 1 cm for convenience. For the time being I'm only concerned with this pyramid.

Pyramidalcornerofcube.jpg


These are the only two images of a three dimensional copper lattice I've been able to find so far. They're both from the same place. What I'm concerned with is the corner. They both indicate that, from the corner toward the base of the pyramid, the structure transitions from one atom to seven atoms.

I confess, I'm no expert. And a lot of what I'm getting into I've had to look up or learn about.



CopperAtom.jpg
]
CopperAtom4.jpg


Just based on the geometry my contention is that there's an intermediate layer of three atoms between the one and the seven shown in the first two models.

So far, this is the best imformation I have and my confidence in it is good. None the less, it has to be verified. This corner is the foundation of the equation and it's not only hidiously sensitive to error all by itself, but it has an identical twin on the opposite side that'll double the error.

So I'm gonna post what I have so far.

CopperAtom3.jpg


A cell, or unit cell, is the smallest fundamental (sort of redundant) configuration of atoms that an atomic or molecular lattice is built from. A lattice is built from cells just like the cell is built from atoms. The same cell pattern is repeated in the lattice just like the same atoms are repeated in the cell.

There are interface characteristics at the boundaries of cells just like there are between individual atoms. Fortunately in the case of copper, it?s lattice being cubic, has the same parameters in all three axis and those are 90? from each other. Murphy must be out of town on this one.

So the geometry of a copper lattice, being cubic, allows us to use the same math, ratios and angles that apply to any other cube for most considerations. Although I can?t deny Rattus? point that you usually can?t have an intersection pointier than the radius of an outer electron orbital.

CopperCell2.jpg


The first representation is unfortunately the most common. The problem with it is that the covalent radius is ignored. The covalent radius is half the distance between two adjacent identical nuclei.

When someone talks about the number of atoms there are across something like the thickness of a penny, (at least every example that I can remember) it?s always presented as something being divided by the diameter of an atom. Which is fine. But that number doesn?t represent the number of atoms you?ll find on a straight line through whatever the object is.

I can?t seem to find the same value for anything in any two places on the internet. But even allowing for some error, if you use as an example the 256 picometers I have for the diameter of a copper atom, and multiply it by two, you can see that you wont get a distance corresponding to that between two copper atoms in it?s lattice structure.

Instead, taking the reported dimensions of a unit cell (that are equal in all three axis remember), and dividing an axis to find the distance between the center of two nucleui, you'll see that, because the atoms are overlapping their electron orbitals, the number of copper atoms in a straight line across it's lattice corresponds to 180.745 picometers instead of the diameter of a single copper atom, 256 picometers. Dismissing any rough value errors I have from source inaccuracies.

So what's gonna happen is that after I decide how to deal with the interface at the corner of the cube, which will be capable of supporting sufficient current to actually measure the resistance in the real world, (It's very interesting why I believe it's possible, any guesses?) the pyramid will be treated as two resitors in series.

The first resistor is what all the atomic stuff is about. The second one is whatever's left of the pyramid. The area of the conductor is proportional to the distance from the corner. So the resistance is inversely proportional.

There's something about the teeny tiny corner that I think actully allows it to work instead of burn up.
 
Re: Resistance Cube

Physis:

I'm not going to try to understand what happens at the corners of the cube when it gets down to a few atoms thick. I will suggest this instead as a real world application of the resistance cube:

1. Start with our perfect cube, and chop off two opposite corners where our connections are to be made. Assume we chop of enough that Iwire can solder a wire onto the surface, and enough that we don't have to worry about quantum mechanics. All we have is a chopped off cube of copper material with a paticular resistivity Rho.

2. Say we chopped off the corners at "d", a paticular distance in from the edges. Also say the diagonal length of the origonal cube was "r".

3. Now its pretty easy to find the resistance. We take a point along the diagonal, call it "x". The area of the cube at x is 4x^2 (for x less than or equal r/2). The resistance is Rho*4x^2.

4. We can find the total resistance by integrating the area as x goes from "d" to r/2 and then multiplying by 2 (since we only went to r/2 instead of to r.)

I would work it out if I had an extra 15 min, but my point is that it is the exact same process as finding the resistance of the imaginary "perfect" cube. Once we have solved the imaginary problem of the "perfect cube", we just have to change a couple of numbers to get the real resistance of a real cube.

Steve

P.S: I took a couple of minutes to try working this, and I think I have it somewhat backward. You have to use the unit conductance, multiply that by the area, and then integrate over the length from d to r/2. It is also easier to make "r" equal to half the length of one side, then intergrate from d to sqrt(3)r/2.

[ June 20, 2005, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: steve66 ]
 
Re: Resistance Cube

By Steve:

Start with our perfect cube, and chop off two opposite corners where our connections are to be made. Assume we chop of enough that Iwire can solder a wire onto the surface
The first part of what you've said is close to what the idea is. To chop off the "imaginary" part of the cube at the corner. Leaving what, I suppose so far, would be the spherical surface of an atom. I'm not necessarily going to worry about the quantum behavior either. Although I am going to look into it some anyway. Mostly the reason for counting atoms is to know the dimensions of the corner and treat that as having the same Rho as the rest. It might seem overly complicated but to me it's not, It's just a matter of finding the information and handling it correctly.

And if you let Bob start soldering on the thing how do know he wont show up with an acetylene torch and some wad of solder from WW2?

It can be done with contacts, thanks anyway Bob. :D

I haven't even gotten to the resistance part yet. Are you sure you guys need calculus for this, cause I don't think you do. The thing's linear.

Edit: I left out a word, and, you can't contaminate it with solder.

[ June 20, 2005, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: Resistance Cube

Alright you guys, you have hijacked my question and keep talking about a non-perfect cube. Just because you can't make one doesn't mean you can't imagine it and try to compute its resistance.

Even so, the solution is trickier than you might believe. The current does not flow parallel to the diagonal axis; double integration would likely be required. On top of that, we start with a 3-sided pyramid, and then encounter some other oddball shape. Must be done piecemeal, and there is the matter of equipotential surfaces. Are they planar? I don't think I can solve it.
 
Re: Resistance Cube

By Rattus:

Alright you guys, you have hijacked my question and keep talking about a non-perfect cube. Just because you can't make one doesn't mean you can't imagine it and try to compute its resistance.
This thing is a piece of cake! How about the resistance between opposite corners of a solid cube of copper?
By Physis:

How bout a sphere?
Sam, the answer to either question is quite simple.
I'm merely pointing out that you can't have it both ways. I don't see anything in the above quotations that would lead me to believe that we're discussing not-real constructs.

Back to the cube.

I consider it to be three sections of which two are identical. I doubt we'll have a difference of opinion there.

I was looking at resistivity as it's dealt with in physics. The reason is that physics doesn't have as a convention a cylindrical standard for describing wire.

Just as an extra tool to have for considering this, this is the definition.

p = RA/l

p = resistivity. In physics it's measured in Ohm meters.
R = the resistance of a uniform sample of material. (measured in Ohms)
l= the sampel's length. (in meters)
A = "The" cross-sectional area of the sample. (in square meters)

I can't see that this definition offers anything more useful than the other. But maybe someone else will.

Even so, the solution is trickier than you might believe. The current does not flow parallel to the diagonal axis
I agree that there might be some interesting prospects in that pyramid because it just might be capable of acting like a megaphone. Although I don't yet have any mathematical reason to suspect that. But I also can't find a mathematical model for resistance that descrides a shape with changing dimensions either.

I still haven't gotten to trying out any math on the pyramid. But on one hand I'm thinking it can be done with nothing more complicated than vectors, and on the other, I also think it's possible we might discover something unusual about how the thing behaves.

As far as I can find, no one's done this. That's not to say that this is as yet uninvestigated, just that I haven't found anything directly associated the concept or for that matter even remotely related to it.
 
Re: Resistance Cube

Sam,

The frustrum of a cone would be easier. A cone would have that infinitely sharp point and infinitely high resistance.
 
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