Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing

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K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
I just noticed that my trusty box fan, all metal, has a non-polarized plug.

It has to be 40-50 years old.

Plugged in one way, the metal of the fan sets off my GT-11, even in the 'off' position. With the plug reversed, it only indicates when the switch is 'on'.

I'll bet it's a good thing I'm not using this in my garage!!!!

I think a video of this is in order.

Thanks, Mike, for making me take a closer look at things!
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Here's a video of me testing an outlet for polarity and hot ground using a Fluke 1AC-A1-II which is rated for 90 to 1,000 volts. Fluke's low-voltage version is too sensitive to differentiate between the hot, neutral and ground contacts on a receptacle, and will beep anywhere near a live outlet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF3Ntoa8ab8&feature=plcp

I didn't make this video for the trades, but rather for the RV owner who plugs their trailer or coach into a new and unknown receptacles at campgrounds every time they go camping.

The GT-11 is just as reliable, but lacks the 'on' indication (flashing) that the Fluke has.
 

jmsokol

Member
Where do I find the product name/number and where can I purchase this?

I'm using a Fluke VoltAlert 1AC-A II in the video, but I think their latest model is the 1AC-A1-II. You can get one at Sears or from Amazon at http://www.amazon.com/Fluke-1AC-A1-II-Volt-Alert-Non-Contact-Voltage/dp/B000EJ332O/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340320328&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=fluke+1ac+a+ii+voltalert+mint

Here's the direct link to Fluke: http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/ele...testers/fluke-1ac-ii.htm?PID=56048&trck=1acii

There are probably other manufacturer versions that are just as good, but I really like Fluke products since they're built to take a beating. Don't go cheap on test gear since your life often depends on it. :thumbsup:
 

jeremysterling

Senior Member
Location
Austin, TX
I'm a big fan of the GT-11. They're somewhat fragile, and I've broken several.

I wish Home Depot had not started to sell the GT-12, which is significantly longer and does not fit in the shirt pocket like the GT-11.
 

jmsokol

Member
Amprobe VoltProbe

Amprobe VoltProbe

I've been testing the Amprobe VP-600SB VoltProbe for the last few weeks, and it has about the same sensitivity as my Fluke VoltAlert. Seems very solid and will built, and since Fluke owns Amprobe, there's certainly some carryover there. It's always "ON" so you can't forget to turn on the switch, plus it has a very LOUD beeper, BRIGHT flashing light and INTENSE buzzer/shaker. If you can't HEAR, SEE and FEEL this thing indicate, then you're probably dead already. Some deals to be had at Amazon and Sears if you google a bit. Price is $14 or so and it uses 2 AA batteries so you're not fishing around looking for watch batteries (I HATE those things).
 

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roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Ok, I'm not reading this whole thread but, I would like to ask if anyone has taken the time to read the instructions that come with these three light "analysers"? They tell you they do not detect all faults and basically are not actual diagnostic equipment.

As far as DIYer's, they may be more aware of this than trade people because the odds are better that they may actually have read the instructions. ;)

Roger
 

jmsokol

Member
Ok, I'm not reading this whole thread but, I would like to ask if anyone has taken the time to read the instructions that come with these three light "analysers"? They tell you they do not detect all faults and basically are not actual diagnostic equipment.

As far as DIYer's, they may be more aware of this than trade people because the odds are better that they may actually have read the instructions. ;)

Roger

Yes, I've read the instructions, and while they say something like "does not detect all faults", they never specify exactly which faults. That's what this thread is all about.

And no, don't think that DIY consumers read directions much at all. I've written operation manuals for pro-audio gear, and the help desks still get the most juvenile questions.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Yes, I've read the instructions, and while they say something like "does not detect all faults", they never specify exactly which faults. That's what this thread is all about.
Here is what Ideal instructions say.

Note:​





1. All appliances or equipment on the circuit being tested should be unplugged tohelp avoid erroneous readings.2. Not a comprehensive diagnostic instrument but a simple instrument to detectnearly all common improper wiring conditions.3. Refer all indicated problems to a qualified electrician.4. Will not indicate quality of ground.5. Will not detect two hot wires in a circuit.6. Will not detect a combination of defects.​





7. Will not detect reversal of grounded and grounding conductors.


And no, don't think that DIY consumers read directions much at all. I've written operation manuals for pro-audio gear, and the help desks still get the most juvenile questions.
So who is asking these juvenile questions, pros, amateurs or both?

Just curious.

Roger



 
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jmsokol

Member

So who is asking these juvenile questions, pros, matures or both? Just curious.

Roger

Roger, my remark about juvenile questions was directed at the pro-audio industry, not the electrical trades. But yes, many of the pro-audio companies I consult for send me help-desk questions all the time that have already been answered in the operators manual. Most of these questions obviously come from entry level users that have little or no training, but many of them seem to come from "pros" as well.

I also teach a sound-system operation seminar about 3 times a month, mostly to newbie sound system operators who have lots of entry level questions. But many of these classes are NoShockZone and ASSIST seminars for advanced A-V installers who are certainly pulling wires and hooking up AC power. I have a 2-hour power and signal module in the middle of this 8-hour installers class where we go over AC power and signal distro for big sound systems, and cover things like ground-loop hum, dimmer buzz, computer ground hash, voltage drop in power lines when amps draw a lot of power, speaker impedance, detecting hot grounds in mics and guitars with a NCVT, etc...

The most popular part of my "ASSIST" seminar from the exit poll is indeed the power and signal distro module. However, it's a little scary when I get the most simple questions possible about electricity from attendees who have been installing sound systems for a decade or more. Not a single one of them seems to know that a 3-light tester can give you a false "good" reading on a mis-wired outlet. And most of them don't read the sound gear manuals either. I know this because I ask how many of them read the manuals.

So my remark is based on the thousands of seminar attendees I have stood up in front of over the last 15 years.
 

jmsokol

Member
Want tough well I got one for ya:happyyes:

A few bands have been going to balanced 120,60,120 volt power supplies covered in article 647 of the NEC, these are bonded at the centertap for fault current path.

Try using a NCVT on one of these:huh:

I've been aware of the Furman balanced power transformers for quite a while, but never drank the kool-aid. And they've been a sponsor of my seminars, so I likely could have gotten any free "balanced power" transformers I wanted. The idea is that guitar amps won't hum in a balanced/symmetrical powered studio or on stage. And it's true that balanced AC power will help improperly shielded audio gear have less hum. However, it will do little or nothing to reduce hum or improve fidelity of PROPERLY grounded and shielded guitars, keyboards, microphones and mixers.

There's a lot of voodoo that goes into sound system grounding, most of which is useless or possibly against code. A properly grounded (to code) studio or sound system will be very quite and not create hum in the player's instruments. However, sound gear that's powered from various branch circuits and interconnected via XLR cables is VERY sensitive to even small safety ground voltage differences, starting at less than 1/10 volt. I know this because I built a ground-loop current injector with a Glo-Melt soldering transformer that lets me create ground loop voltage differentials up to 3 volts or so (and up to 30 amperes). You can easily measure the resulting loop currents with a basic clamp-meter around the exterior of the microphone cable. You don't need to split out the center conductors from the shield, because the ground loop currents are ONLY in the shield and circulate back through the power outlet's safety grounds. See attached diagram below.

Some powered speakers (such as Mackie powered wedge monitors) will noticeably hum at 100 mA ground loop current, and sound like a swarm of angry hummingbirds with 1 amp of ground loop current, which only takes about 1 to 2 volts ground loop differential voltage. Sustained ground loop voltages of only 3 volts can burn up the circuit board traces inside this gear, which does stop the hum but adds the possibility of a future shock to the next sound guy hooking up something else to this damaged gear. I use a lot of 600:600 ohm audio isolation transformers which introduces a break in the XLR cable shields, effectively stopping any ground loop currents and eliminating the hums. That's how I make sound systems quiet on poorly wired stages.

I've been fighting hum in sound systems for 40 years, but now that I've built my own ground loop test rig I've learned more about it in the last year than the previous 39 years.
 

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hurk27

Senior Member
I got one for ya:

At a club (I wired this club) one Saturday just before a large multi-band benefit show, I was teaching some soundmen about what groundloop hums really are (and why we didn't have them at this club), and I had a few who could not grasp the concept that current on conduit can cause this, well that was until I took a Crown Macro-Tec 2400 in bridge mode connected the output speaker wires one to the EGC at the mixer board receptacle and the other at a stage receptacle that was on the sub-panel that also fed the amp rack, I just hooked up a mic into one of the XLR inputs of the amp and the mixerboard was not even on just the amp rack, and their jaws about dropped when I flipped the switch on the mic and spoke and about sent all the amps into clipping, then they started putting it together:happyyes:
Good thing for me that crowns especially Macro-Tec will take a 1 ohm load and not even break a sweat
 
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until I took a Crown Macro-Tec 2400 in bridge mode connected the output speaker wires one to the EGC at the mixer board receptacle and the other at a stage receptacle that was on the sub-panel that also fed the amp rack, I just hooked up a mic into one of the XLR inputs of the amp and the mixerboard was not even on just the amp rack, and their jaws about dropped when I flipped the switch on the mic and spoke and about sent all the amps into clipping, then they started putting it together:happyyes:

I've always loved Crown, if nothing else for that.

Here's another one:
At an outdoor festival... one set of camlocks feeding the sound power distro and the lights (not dimmed) feeding from there. Camlocks are mounted to the service panel, the weatherhead is 15' above that and the dirt and rods are 4' below.

Because of "noise", the sound man pulled the green camlock off it's panel-mount friend and used a tail and a clamp to connect it to a metal pole (not to the conveniently-located ground rod). He said that shortening the ground path so it didn't go through the panel made a difference. I did explain that this kinda messed up the concept of actually protecting people from faults/etc. Sigh.

At least the sound wranglers aren't nearly as bad as caterers/food vendors.
 

jmsokol

Member
Modulated ground loops

Modulated ground loops

I got one for ya:
I took a Crown Macro-Tec 2400 in bridge mode connected the output speaker wires one to the EGC at the mixer board receptacle and the other at a stage receptacle that was on the sub-panel that also fed the amp rack, I just hooked up a mic into one of the XLR inputs of the amp and the mixerboard was not even on just the amp rack, and their jaws about dropped when I flipped the switch on the mic and spoke and about sent all the amps into clipping, then they started putting it together:happyyes:
Good thing for me that crowns especially Macro-Tec will take a 1 ohm load and not even break a sweat

An interesting and terrifying demonstration. I've often heard ground loops being modulated by music because when the amplifiers draw AC power on loud song dynamics, the extra voltage drop in the hot and neutral will show up in the safety ground if it has been improperly bonded to the neutral on a branch circuit. This sounds like a 60 Hz "false" note under the actual music, and really bugs me. But I've never thought about turning it around and modulating the ground loop current with music so instead of hum in the speaker, you hear voice or music in the speakers. Very cool, but also very dangerous for all but the most robust power amplifiers, which as you suggest, Crown Macro-Tec amps are in their own class. I think you could arc weld with them if need be... :D

I could add this modulation of ground loop currents into my own rig with a much smaller power amp by using a 200 watt, 4-ohm to 70 volt audio distro transformer backwards, so a small amp (200 watts) in bridge mode would power the 70-volt side of the transformer. I would then have a nice low-impedance and ground isolated secondary to insert into my ground loop path in addition to my Glo-Melt soldering transformer for the AC hum demonstration. I picked up this cool looking knife switch from a car wiring manufacturer last year, and it's the perfect thing for switching the low-impedance output of a reversed 70-volt transformer into the ground loop path.

Nobody get excited about me opening up safety grounds in a building. This is a table-top demonstration rig that's under my complete control and supervision. And the knife switch with exposed copper bus bars will only see ground potential and a few volts ground loop differential, so it's safe to use for a demonstration.

Too much fun... I'll post a picture when it's complete.

Remember, the entire reason for this ground loop demonstration is to promote correctly wired power outlets in remodeling and new installations that won't cause ground loop hum in sound systems. Ground loop hum is what causes musicians and sound techs to cut off the ground pins on their power amp extension cords to stop the noise. But that can also create a hot-chassis condition, where musicians are shocked when they touch guitar strings and a microphone at the same time. A NCVT is a great tool to check for these hot-chassis voltages on stage instruments and mics. They typically trigger around 40 volts AC, which is a good place to start. Not as good as testing from a known ground to a microphone with a DMM, but NOBODY will do that unless a musician was knocked out or killed on stage. There's simply not enough time during a show to use a DMM on a grounded wire, but certainly you can walk around the stage with a NCVT and poke it at all the stage amps and microphones in a minute or two.
 

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