romex touching dryer vent pipe

[iwire]

Why are we installing arcfault breakers? To protect the conductors from hack installers that dont understand this concept. Creating extra cost to everyone because they cannot be trusted to wire a house in nm without burning it down.

Could you provide any proof of that at all?

Of course not.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I hope he got his money, I'm fixin to go on an AFCI manufacturer killing spree!!!

Note to FBI...Just a joke.

LOL :grin::grin:

 

[peter d]

Could you provide any proof of that at all?

Of course not.

If anything is true, it's that most dwelling fires (the vast majority perhaps?) are not caused by premises wiring. There are no reliable statistics on this out there, but many fires listed as "electrical" are from causes beyond the receptacle.

 

[quogueelectric]

The reason yours are tripping is because you're a hack installer who needs to go buy a staple gun.

Leave the 24oz wafflehead framing hammer in the trunk.

 

[quogueelectric]

Could you provide any proof of that at all?

Of course not.

11-23-2008, 06:01 AM
iwire
Moderator Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 27,922

note
FRom post about smokes on afci circuits
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by quogueelectric
I just went through the 2005 on afcis and I have no Idea what you are refrencing from the posts.

Look at the difference between 210.8 which requires GFCI protection for only the outlet (receptacle) and 210.12 which requires AFCI protection for the entire circuit.

AFCI protection is intended to protect the wiring in the walls as much as the equipment beyond the outlets.




Quote:
I agree that outlets get smashd all the time by furniture and case fires. I agree that aluminum wireing causes fires from poor connections. I dont agree at all that a low current circuit with devices mounted on the ceiling are in any danger of physical damage that could cause a fire.

That really has nothing to do with it, we must provide AFCI protection to the branch circuit conductors supplying the outlets for those devices.


Quote:
I dont agree that the low current devices are likely to cause a fire. I doubt a smoke detector/alarm ever caused a fire.

You may well be right, but that is not the only thing 210.12 addresses.
__________________
January 28, 1986

 

[roger]

11-23-2008, 06:01 AM
iwire
Moderator Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 27,922

note
FRom post about smokes on afci circuits
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by quogueelectric
I just went through the 2005 on afcis and I have no Idea what you are refrencing from the posts.

Look at the difference between 210.8 which requires GFCI protection for only the outlet (receptacle) and 210.12 which requires AFCI protection for the entire circuit.

AFCI protection is intended to protect the wiring in the walls as much as the equipment beyond the outlets.




Quote:
I agree that outlets get smashd all the time by furniture and case fires. I agree that aluminum wireing causes fires from poor connections. I dont agree at all that a low current circuit with devices mounted on the ceiling are in any danger of physical damage that could cause a fire.

That really has nothing to do with it, we must provide AFCI protection to the branch circuit conductors supplying the outlets for those devices.


Quote:
I dont agree that the low current devices are likely to cause a fire. I doubt a smoke detector/alarm ever caused a fire.

You may well be right, but that is not the only thing 210.12 addresses.
__________________
January 28, 1986

Who said what in that?



Roger

 

[electricmanscott]

The reason yours are tripping is because you're a hack installer who needs to go buy a staple gun.

Why? With a finish nailer and good aim who needs staples?

Guilty as charged on the hack installer thing.

 

[peter d]

Why? With a finish nailer and good aim who needs staples?

Best laugh I've had all day.

 

[quogueelectric]

Who said what in that?



Roger

I dont know how to make a link to this post but it is #40 in smoke detectors on arcfault breakers in NEC

 

[r_merc]

Wow

Wow

All I have to say about this whole thread is WOW.

With out seeing the install I am going to assume that the Inspector is asking for protection from physical damage of the cables. Not an unreasonable request and within the scope of his responsibilities IMO. Vibration of metal duct will cause damage to the cables. Been on service calls to repair such damage.

Now from my perspective its a shame that the Mechanical installer didn't respect the work already installed.

Rick

 

[hardworkingstiff]

This is exactly why every house should be wired in rigid conduit, and encased in 4" of concrete.

Would make a nice grounding system.

 

[steelersman]

Do you hire out?

no I do my own stunts.

 

[steelersman]

Precisely why we should get in after the plumber and HVAC boys have roughed in.

That's the preferred order most like to follow.

 

[steelersman]

For the second time in this post you are making assumptions on things that you did not see. You have not responded about the arcfault breakers making houses safe because there are sooo many hack installers out there. Do the world a favor and Stick to resi and buy a staple gun.

deckscrew has already replied and confirmed what I've been saying: there is no stress on the cables, this has nothing to do with why the inspector wants the cables off of the duct, the inspector is obviously incorrectly worrying about the heat from the duct. This is so obviousl to me and has been since first reading the OP. I truly believe that those of you who want to site physical damage as reasons for defending the inspector's unreasonable request, and saying "you haven't seen the jobsite so you can't tell" for whatever reason just don't care for me and my attitude. Deal with it and suck it up, because I'm not going away unless I get erased by the big dogs.

As for you thinking that I'm dodging your response about hacks being the reason for the use of AFCI's, I don't feel the need to respond to that. What's there to say? Maybe that's the reason, maybe not. I've never thought about why AFCI's were required. I've also not known until joining this forum what exactly AFCI's did. I've learned alot of things since joining this forum.

It's sad that you feel the need to puff out your chest and brag about your credentials and make an assumption of my character without ever meeting me or seeing my work or knowing who I am. i mean...that would be like me assuming that your father used you at age 12 to get the free or cheap labor out of you, when in fact that is probably not the case.

Now how about your response to the GFCI's not needing a ground to work properly?

 

[quogueelectric]

deckscrew has already replied and confirmed what I've been saying: there is no stress on the cables, this has nothing to do with why the inspector wants the cables off of the duct, the inspector is obviously incorrectly worrying about the heat from the duct. This is so obviousl to me and has been since first reading the OP. I truly believe that those of you who want to site physical damage as reasons for defending the inspector's unreasonable request, and saying "you haven't seen the jobsite so you can't tell" for whatever reason just don't care for me and my attitude. Deal with it and suck it up, because I'm not going away unless I get erased by the big dogs.

As for you thinking that I'm dodging your response about hacks being the reason for the use of AFCI's, I don't feel the need to respond to that. What's there to say? Maybe that's the reason, maybe not. I've never thought about why AFCI's were required. I've also not known until joining this forum what exactly AFCI's did. I've learned alot of things since joining this forum.

It's sad that you feel the need to puff out your chest and brag about your credentials and make an assumption of my character without ever meeting me or seeing my work or knowing who I am. i mean...that would be like me assuming that your father used you at age 12 to get the free or cheap labor out of you, when in fact that is probably not the case.

Now how about your response to the GFCI's not needing a ground to work properly?

I will respond to your juvenile post point by point so you can understand in baby steps and this is not so overwhelming to you all at once.

#1 I am talking about physical damage which I have been called many times to repair nm that has blown up from rubbing/resting /whatever on HVAC ductwork. If you have never seen it it is probably because the fire dpt already crushed it with an excavator.

#2 I dont give a crap about the tough guy ATTITUDE you are talking about you are about the last thing on my list of prioritys.

#3 The arcfault push is an obvious push by insurance cos to make the wiring better with less fires this is what the nfpa is all about Money and safety(claims). The arcfault breaker will slowly weed out the hack electrician over the next few years. As only a perfectly wired system will work and then maybe not. This will put an end to the weekend hack and brotherinlaws friend uneducated electrician type of work because it will trip the afci.

#4 You came at me first and told me to stick to commercial Then you brought my father into it then called me a liar. You need professional counseling in my opinion. You would not be so mouthy if we were nose to nose that I am sure of.

#5 As far as the gfci post I dont need to drag them out anymore ad nauseum to anyone on this site as this dragged out over a year and ended kind of when I ran an experiment to either prove or disprove the results of modern gfcis.

I set up an experiment and posted the results which showed that the MODERN gfci which I used worked exactly as it was supposed to and I was man enough to spend 75 bucks on testing this theory and posting with pictures an unfavorable result in my direction.

I am searching for the truth which separates me from little men like you. This was not the gfci that shocked me so we will never know the answer. Noone else on this site set up an experiment like me and posted the results on this topic. If you need to read the whole thread go back and read them. Get a grip on yourself stop being so combative and MAYBE you will learn something from the experiences of others. We are all here to learn. Go GIANTS!!!

 

[acrwc10]

deckscrew has already replied and confirmed what I've been saying: there is no stress on the cables, this has nothing to do with why the inspector wants the cables off of the duct, the inspector is obviously incorrectly worrying about the heat from the duct. This is so obviousl to me and has been since first reading the OP. I truly believe that those of you who want to site physical damage as reasons for defending the inspector's unreasonable request, and saying "you haven't seen the jobsite so you can't tell" for whatever reason just don't care for me and my attitude. Deal with it and suck it up, because I'm not going away unless I get erased by the big dogs.

As for you thinking that I'm dodging your response about hacks being the reason for the use of AFCI's, I don't feel the need to respond to that. What's there to say? Maybe that's the reason, maybe not. I've never thought about why AFCI's were required. I've also not known until joining this forum what exactly AFCI's did. I've learned alot of things since joining this forum.

It's sad that you feel the need to puff out your chest and brag about your credentials and make an assumption of my character without ever meeting me or seeing my work or knowing who I am. i mean...that would be like me assuming that your father used you at age 12 to get the free or cheap labor out of you, when in fact that is probably not the case.

Now how about your response to the GFCI's not needing a ground to work properly?

I will respond to your juvenile post point by point so you can understand in baby steps and this is not so overwhelming to you all at once.

#1 I am talking about physical damage which I have been called many times to repair nm that has blown up from rubbing/resting /whatever on HVAC ductwork. If you have never seen it it is probably because the fire dpt already crushed it with an excavator.

#2 I dont give a crap about the tough guy ATTITUDE you are talking about you are about the last thing on my list of prioritys.

#3 The arcfault push is an obvious push by insurance cos to make the wiring better with less fires this is what the nfpa is all about Money and safety(claims). The arcfault breaker will slowly weed out the hack electrician over the next few years. As only a perfectly wired system will work and then maybe not. This will put an end to the weekend hack and brotherinlaws friend uneducated electrician type of work because it will trip the afci.

#4 You came at me first and told me to stick to commercial Then you brought my father into it then called me a liar. You need professional counseling in my opinion. You would not be so mouthy if we were nose to nose that I am sure of.

#5 As far as the gfci post I dont need to drag them out anymore ad nauseum to anyone on this site as this dragged out over a year and ended kind of when I ran an experiment to either prove or disprove the results of modern gfcis.

I set up an experiment and posted the results which showed that the MODERN gfci which I used worked exactly as it was supposed to and I was man enough to spend 75 bucks on testing this theory and posting with pictures an unfavorable result in my direction.

I am searching for the truth which separates me from little men like you. This was not the gfci that shocked me so we will never know the answer. Noone else on this site set up an experiment like me and posted the results on this topic. If you need to read the whole thread go back and read them. Get a grip on yourself stop being so combative and MAYBE you will learn something from the experiences of others. We are all here to learn. Go GIANTS!!!

If you two would like to go nose to nose, post it here so we can all see it. If not "can't we all just get along ?" :smile:

 

[triplstep]

The aim of argument or discussion should not be of victory, but progress.

I wish a Happy Thanksgiving to Mr. & Mrs. Mike Holt, their family, and to everyone and their families in the Mike Holt Forum.

 

[quogueelectric]

If you two would like to go nose to nose, post it here so we can all see it. If not "can't we all just get along ?" :smile:

Hey werent you the one who posted that overdriven staples were the cause of fires?? Oh I get it stirr the pot and run away laughing. Smokey!@#$$%%^^&&**(()_+

 

[steelersman]

#1 I am talking about physical damage which I have been called many times to repair nm that has blown up from rubbing/resting /whatever on HVAC ductwork. If you have never seen it it is probably because the fire dpt already crushed it with an excavator.

sounds like a farse

#3 The arcfault push is an obvious push by insurance cos to make the wiring better with less fires this is what the nfpa is all about Money and safety(claims). The arcfault breaker will slowly weed out the hack electrician over the next few years. As only a perfectly wired system will work and then maybe not. This will put an end to the weekend hack and brotherinlaws friend uneducated electrician type of work because it will trip the afci.

don't know about that and don't really care. But it sounds like they must frustrate the hell outta you though.

#4 You came at me first and told me to stick to commercial Then you brought my father into it then called me a liar. You need professional counseling in my opinion. You would not be so mouthy if we were nose to nose that I am sure of.

wrong. I came at you after you came at me insinuating that I'm a hack and talking about being a twelve year old electrician.
You brought your father into it.
I never called you a liar.
Maybe I'm already seeing a counselor.
I just might surprise you at how mouthy I can be nose to nose to someone no matter how big they are. Don't be so sure of it.

#5 As far as the gfci post I dont need to drag them out anymore ad nauseum to anyone on this site as this dragged out over a year and ended kind of when I ran an experiment to either prove or disprove the results of modern gfcis.

Fair enough

I am searching for the truth which separates me from little men like you. Get a grip on yourself stop being so combative and MAYBE you will learn something from the experiences of others

I like the truth also. I think we all do. And I have learned from this site in case you missed it in my post you just quoted. I have learned alot in my short time being here. So now that the truth has come out about there being no stress on the NM cables, can you be man enough to admit that the inspector is just trying to make up his own code and that it had nothing to do with physical damage to the cable but rather he was concerned about the heat from the duct, meaning that I've been spot on all along?

 

[quogueelectric]

sounds like a farse





don't know about that and don't really care. But it sounds like they must frustrate the hell outta you though.



wrong. I came at you after you came at me insinuating that I'm a hack and talking about being a twelve year old electrician.
You brought your father into it.
I never called you a liar.
Maybe I'm already seeing a counselor.
I just might surprise you at how mouthy I can be nose to nose to someone no matter how big they are. Don't be so sure of it.



Fair enough





I like the truth also. I think we all do. And I have learned from this site in case you missed it in my post you just quoted. I have learned alot in my short time being here. So now that the truth has come out about there being no stress on the NM cables, can you be man enough to admit that the inspector is just trying to make up his own code and that it had nothing to do with physical damage to the cable but rather he was concerned about the heat from the duct, meaning that I've been spot on all along?

No way Jose............ spot on all wrong. :smile: :wink: