Sahib's Concern Over 240V to a Duplex

[hurk27]

But still more can be done in the way of safety which may be still within the capability of an Engineer.Watch the discussion with Charlie as it develops,if you really enjoy it.

Sure it can be made more safe, remove all electrical products from your house have your utility turn off the power at the pole, and go back to living like it was in the 1800's while your at it enjoy all the money you will save by not having an electric bill.

But this is just the point, we chose to use electricity in our life by choice, and this choice can and does expose us to some dangers, we have to use some common sense or we will not live very long, no one can protect us totally from all the dangers that we may be exposed too, that is why it is said we are our only protectors, there is some who say stupid should hurt, well it should, when we do something that hurts we usually don't do it again, or find a safer way of doing it, no different than choosing to drive a vehicle, we all know how dangerous this can be but we have come to depend upon the freedoms and conveyance of having your own way of transportation can be as a way for us to feel independent, so we make a choice to take upon ourselves the risk of driving, so then it comes down to how we take safety in to our thought when doing so, we all know there are many who drive dangerously which we call wreckless drivers who not only put themselves at risk but others who share the same roads, while there maybe laws that take many of these careless drivers off the road we all know there will always be another still out there, so we still choose to drive.

Life is full of choices, some dangerous and some not, again I ask you which life would you want to live?
1. where you are put into a padded cell to forever never to experience anything that gives so much enjoyment to be a part of the world, but you would be safe deep inside your little cell or:

2. choose to live your life fully being a part of the world even though we know that some risk taking is required to a level of your common sense of being your own protector?

Whether it is safe or not,that is the question.:roll:

Being safe or not is a opinion of the person rating the object of the discussion, while one might say walking out your front door of your house is not safe, but the next person who has more confidence in their ability to be their own protector, (has faith that they can look out for themselves) will have no problem jumping out of an airplane with a napkin on their back.

My choice is the latter, as it is up to me to keep myself safe, there is no one else that can do this for me, and I want to live my life as fully as I can, and enjoy the experiences of what life has to offer, while also knowing that every day I wake up that there will be risk that I have to take using my knowledge and understanding and common sense to reduce these risk as much as possible.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

Sure an engineer can design above the NEC standard. But when his design takes his project to far out of a reasonable cost projections whether it be material cost or labor cost, owners and other customers will look elsewhere for a more affordable design.

We in the electrical profession need the qualities of a successful salesman.We need to 'sell' our ideas successfully.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

Sure it can be made more safe, remove all electrical products from your house have your utility turn off the power at the pole, and go back to living like it was in the 1800's while your at it enjoy all the money you will save by not having an electric bill.

But this is just the point, we chose to use electricity in our life by choice, and this choice can and does expose us to some dangers, we have to use some common sense or we will not live very long, no one can protect us totally from all the dangers that we may be exposed too, that is why it is said we are our only protectors, there is some who say stupid should hurt, well it should, when we do something that hurts we usually don't do it again, or find a safer way of doing it, no different than choosing to drive a vehicle, we all know how dangerous this can be but we have come to depend upon the freedoms and conveyance of having your own way of transportation can be as a way for us to feel independent, so we make a choice to take upon ourselves the risk of driving, so then it comes down to how we take safety in to our thought when doing so, we all know there are many who drive dangerously which we call wreckless drivers who not only put themselves at risk but others who share the same roads, while there maybe laws that take many of these careless drivers off the road we all know there will always be another still out there, so we still choose to drive.

Life is full of choices, some dangerous and some not, again I ask you which life would you want to live?
1. where you are put into a padded cell to forever never to experience anything that gives so much enjoyment to be a part of the world, but you would be safe deep inside your little cell or:

2. choose to live your life fully being a part of the world even though we know that some risk taking is required to a level of your common sense of being your own protector?



Being safe or not is a opinion of the person rating the object of the discussion, while one might say walking out your front door of your house is not safe, but the next person who has more confidence in their ability to be their own protector, (has faith that they can look out for themselves) will have no problem jumping out of an airplane with a napkin on their back.

My choice is the latter, as it is up to me to keep myself safe, there is no one else that can do this for me, and I want to live my life as fully as I can, and enjoy the experiences of what life has to offer, while also knowing that every day I wake up that there will be risk that I have to take using my knowledge and understanding and common sense to reduce these risk as much as possible.

See post #62.
I can not,for the time being,sell my ideas to you.

 

[hurk27]

See post #62.
I can not,for the time being,sell my ideas to you.

Yes they tell me I'm a hard sell:happyyes:

But I want to point out that by no means am I trying to say that we shouldn't look for safer ways of doing things, or that we should stop trying, but we must also respect that in some cases we will find things that there is just no easy answer, Don't know about you, but I'm in it for the learning and to maybe some day be able to find something that may have been over looked that might save some ones life or even if it just save someone from a simple injury, but while doing so we also must look at how feasible and at what cost and weigh the options as to weather it can be implemented into an effective requirement without costing us our freedom or liberties by being over bearing on the end user of such safety requirement, laws such as codes should not dictate on us to the extent of how dangerous we wish to live our lives, to do so is to remove our liberties that we might so enjoy, and where would it stop, should we band every dangerous thing we do, like skiing, sky diving, under water diving, even playing foot ball can be considered dangerous, I should think not, laws should only protect us from another violating our rights and keep us from violating theirs, anything else is over stepping what laws are about.

So when we enter into these discussions we should keep an open mind to the opinions of others, and use them to learn by, by doing our own research and determining if such a safety idea is implementable based upon the above criteria and not try to force our opinion upon others if they don't agree.
Do you agree?

 

[Ponchik]

seriously??
why is this thread even continuing we are not getting anywhere.

IMO, the intention of these threads is to learn not argue over a topic that the likely hood of that accident happening to the house wife is almost zero.

 

[hurk27]

We in the electrical profession need the qualities of a successful salesman.We need to 'sell' our ideas successfully.

That might work for cars or other appliances, but when we look at making a change to a code that is in most cases adopted into law we must show the facts and the proof that the need out weighs the cost or inconvenience it might put on those who must bare the change.

 

[Besoeker]

Whether it is safe or not,that is the question.:roll:

If 240V is unsafe why do you this is is so widely used in so many countries?

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

Yes they tell me I'm a hard sell:happyyes:

But I want to point out that by no means am I trying to say that we shouldn't look for safer ways of doing things, or that we should stop trying, but we must also respect that in some cases we will find things that there is just no easy answer, Don't know about you, but I'm in it for the learning and to maybe some day be able to find something that may have been over looked that might save some ones life or even if it just save someone from a simple injury, but while doing so we also must look at how feasible and at what cost and weigh the options as to weather it can be implemented into an effective requirement without costing us our freedom or liberties by being over bearing on the end user of such safety requirement, laws such as codes should not dictate on us to the extent of how dangerous we wish to live our lives, to do so is to remove our liberties that we might so enjoy, and where would it stop, should we band every dangerous thing we do, like skiing, sky diving, under water diving, even playing foot ball can be considered dangerous, I should think not, laws should only protect us from another violating our rights and keep us from violating theirs, anything else is over stepping what laws are about.

So when we enter into these discussions we should keep an open mind to the opinions of others, and use them to learn by, by doing our own research and determining if such a safety idea is implementable based upon the above criteria and not try to force our opinion upon others if they don't agree.
Do you agree?

Yes.Agreed.But I do not know why you are stressing the principles as above.Are there any violation of them here?

 

[hurk27]

Yes.Agreed.But I do not know why you are stressing the principles as above.Are there any violation of them here?

Only that you tend to not accept the responses of others who try to point out things that while they seem important to you in your thoughts, are not as strongly a problem in real life, with the understanding as to how things are done in other parts of the world and the facts that they have not been as big a problem as you have thought, you must research how these things are addressed in code or other, to understand for yourself to learn why when we say its not a problem it really is not, as an example you didn't know that all receptacles in a kitchen serving the counter top are required to be GFCI protect, this in its self should have opened your mind to understand that the safety problem you addressed would now not have been a problem, another thing was, it was pointed out that newer requirements of bonding the cases of appliances or the techniques of double insulation which is a proved method of preventing a shock hazard, you still didn't open your mind that this would protect the person from a shock, this is area where you need to learn to open your mind, not to just accept it, but to research it for your self to understand these are proved methods that have long been implemented in the code to prevent the safety problem you addressed.

I want to believe that you are here to learn, but you must open your mind before this can happen.
Do not let what you have already learned in life block you from learning new things.

 

[Besoeker]

I want to believe that you are here to learn, but you must open your mind before this can happen.

The beginning of understanding is the acknowledgement of ignorance.
I'm not sanguine about the prospects of that happening in this case.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

Only that you tend to not accept the responses of others who try to point out things that while they seem important to you in your thoughts, are not as strongly a problem in real life, with the understanding as to how things are done in other parts of the world and the facts that they have not been as big a problem as you have thought, you must research how these things are addressed in code or other, to understand for yourself to learn why when we say its not a problem it really is not,

I did not tend to refuse the responses of others on my own.Several posts below I stated that my objection against the use of mwbc in residential kitchen was taken from 'Handbook of Practical Electrical Design' written by 'one of them'.I only stated.How can this cause violation of the principles?

as an example you didn't know that all receptacles in a kitchen serving the counter top are required to be GFCI protect,

But then it can not be mwbc due to nuisance trip.

it was pointed out that newer requirements of bonding the cases of appliances

Grounding portable Kitchen appliances such as toaster, coffeemaker etc makes sense.But how
to 'bond' them?

I want to believe that you are here to learn, but you must open your mind before this can happen.
Do not let what you have already learned in life block you from learning new things.

I hope this applies to you as well,buddy.

 

[Besoeker]

I did not tend to refuse the responses of others on my own.

Then how about addressing the point that 240V or thereabouts is widely used throughout the world?
Why so if it is dangerous?
Isn't that of great concern to you?
That voltage seems to be the ill-founded basis of your objection to the duplex.

 

[iwire]

But then it can not be mwbc due to nuisance trip.

This is false and perhaps you should stick to what you know.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

This is false and perhaps you should stick to what you know.

You are most welcome to correct me.Please explain how I am wrong.Thanks.

 

[iwire]

You are most welcome to correct me.Please explain how I am wrong.Thanks.

No, you tell us why you think a MWBC will be a problem with GFCIs.

 

[T.M.Haja Sahib]

No, you tell us why you think a MWBC will be a problem with GFCIs.

Then I have to,again, refer you to 'Handbook of Practical Electrical Design'.Are you having a copy of it or not?

 

[Besoeker]

This is false and perhaps you should stick to what you know.

Could be a show stopper..........

 

[Besoeker]

Then I have to,again, refer you to 'Handbook of Practical Electrical Design'.Are you having a copy of it or not?

How about explaining it in your own words?

 

[iwire]

Then I have to,again, refer you to 'Handbook of Practical Electrical Design'.Are you having a copy of it or not?

No, and I don't need it.:happyno:

You tell us in your own words why you think a MWBC will be a problem with GFCIs.

If you cannot answer the question I will assume you are just talking out your rear.

 

[hurk27]

I did not tend to refuse the responses of others on my own.Several posts below I stated that my objection against the use of mwbc in residential kitchen was taken from 'Handbook of Practical Electrical Design' written by 'one of them'.I only stated.How can this cause violation of the principles?

The problem is when we suggest different methods that prevent the danger you present instead of asking about this method, you deny yourself the understanding of these methods by not asking what is double insulation, or how can a GFCI protect a MWBC, and as you see below it is a simple explanation of each and if you still don't understand then details as how these circuits work can be warranted.

But then it can not be MWBC due to nuisance trip.

This is not true, as placing individual GFCI receptacles after the MWBC is split back into two separate circuits this does not occur, also putting the MWBC on a two pole breaker allows all three current conductors to pass through the GFCI sensing coil and doesn't cause the circuit to trip.

Grounding portable Kitchen appliances such as toaster, coffeemaker etc makes sense.But how
to 'bond' them?

One of two options that are required at the manufacturing level that is accomplished through the EGC in a 3-wire cord, appliances bonded in this method will have a 3-wire cord.

the other option is double insulated, in which all current carrying component's are isolated from any internal metal such as mounting and other metal components, second either the case is made of an insulating material or if the case is a conductive metal this conductive metal is farther isolated from the internal metal by another layer of insulated material, very effective.

I hope this applies to you as well,buddy.

very much so. thank you