Service Conductors, limited or not?

[don_resqcapt19]

That said, I don't see the reason for you bringing up 230.6...

...the question here is what criteria determines the inside-outside boundary.

Yes that is the question, and you said under the outer covering of the building is not inside. If that is the case than it should be clear that under the building is also not inside the building, but we needed a specific code rule to tell us that under the building is not inside the building.

 

[One-eyed Jack]

I guess we can all agree that the NEC does not specify a specific distance. With regard to the service entrance on the unmetered side of meter the POCO has the final say. One can interpret the NEC any way you see fit. POCO wants it on the surface of the building. You can fax,hand deliver,whatever the reasons you think it should be allowed from whatever organization you choose. It is their interpretation in this area that it belongs outside. The POCO is the AHJ in this area for that application.

 

[walkerj]

"Nearest the point of entrance" is very subjective.

Nearest compared to what?

To me, "Nearest the point of entrance" means before any electrical load.

 

[Volta]

"Nearest the point of entrance" is very subjective.

Nearest compared to what?

To me, "Nearest the point of entrance" means before any electrical load.

To me, 'nearest' means, "Can't be closer."

If it can be closer, it isn't nearest :roll:.

 

[Strife]

Is there an NEC section that limits the length of service conductors inside the building.


I ask the question because of some of the things in this thread.

enclosed service mast

Directly: NO
Indirectly: YES. Voltage drop limitations(if you look at it backwards. IE: #12 on 20A you can only go so many feet before you exceed the voltage drop allowed by code)

 

[Volta]

Directly: NO
Indirectly: YES. Voltage drop limitations(if you look at it backwards. IE: #12 on 20A you can only go so many feet before you exceed the voltage drop allowed by code)

Nope, Article 645 and 695 only, as far as I know.

 

[kwired]

"Nearest the point of entrance" is very subjective.

Nearest compared to what?

To me, "Nearest the point of entrance" means before any electrical load.

The load(s) are located at the other end of the branch circuit(s) and not on the service conductors or feeders. Loads are things that consume energy to do work such as lights, motors, heaters, etc.

 

[Strife]

Yes that is the question, and you said under the outer covering of the building is not inside. If that is the case than it should be clear that under the building is also not inside the building, but we needed a specific code rule to tell us that under the building is not inside the building.

There's 3 exception to the rule of feeders not being "inside a building"
1: Underground
2: Encased in min 2" concrete.
3: In a concrete/brick chase
other than that, feeders can not be inside a building.

 

[hurk27]

There's 3 exception to the rule of feeders not being "inside a building"
1: Underground
2: Encased in min 2" concrete.
3: In a concrete/brick chase
other than that, feeders can not be inside a building.

I hope you ment service entrance conductors?

feeders are allowed inside buildings as they are protected by OCPD or they wouldnt be called a feeder.

 

[charlie b]

There's 3 exception to the rule of feeders not being "inside a building" . . . other than that, feeders can not be inside a building.

I know you meant service conductors. But you are still misinterpreting the article. Those three things are not exceptions to any requirement. They are definitions, in essence, of what it means for a service conductor to be "outside" the building. If you use one of those three methods, then the service conductors are outside. If you don't, they are inside. Nothing in that article says that service conductors can't be inside.

 

[Smart $]

Yes that is the question, and you said under the outer covering of the building is not inside. If that is the case than it should be clear that under the building is also not inside the building, but we needed a specific code rule to tell

The reason we need a specific code to tell us that under the building shall be considered outside the building is because there are situations where a horizontal service-entrance run penetrates two outer structural barriers. As such the service conductors could be considered as being inside upon penetrating the first barrier from outside. Consider the following depicted scenario...

 

[Smart $]

I know you meant service conductors. But you are still misinterpreting the article. Those three things are not exceptions to any requirement. They are definitions, in essence, of what it means for a service conductor to be "outside" the building. If you use one of those three methods, then the service conductors are outside. If you don't, they are inside. Nothing in that article says that service conductors can't be inside.

Where service-entrance conductors meet any of the four conditions of 230.6 does not mean the conductors are outside the building. They "shall be considered outside" does not mean they are outside... only that they "shall be considered outside".

 

[George Stolz]

I have to say I am more than a bit surprised that at this time it is neck and neck in the poll.

Agreed. That is very, very odd. :-?

Makes me feel a little better about being in the minority on the other poll, though. If what should be a cut-and-dried issue comes in 60/40 instead of 100/0, then maybe my poll results were similarly maligned.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The reason we need a specific code to tell us that under the building shall be considered outside the building is because there are situations where a horizontal service-entrance run penetrates two outer structural barriers. As such the service conductors could be considered as being inside upon penetrating the first barrier from outside. Consider the following depicted scenario...

To me it is very clear that the conductors in your drawing are outside the building until they penetrate the floor and it is also very clear to me that the conductors under the outside covering of a building are inside that building.

I don't see either of us agreeing to the others viewpoint on this issue.

 

[mivey]

Agreed. That is very, very odd. :-?

Makes me feel a little better about being in the minority on the other poll, though. If what should be a cut-and-dried issue comes in 60/40 instead of 100/0, then maybe my poll results were similarly maligned.

I voted no. I see it pretty much the way charlie b does in #17

 

[Smart $]

To me it is very clear that the conductors in your drawing are outside the building until they penetrate the floor...

I am in personal agreement with you on this part of your statement.

As for...

...and it is also very clear to me that the conductors under the outside covering of a building are inside that building

...and earlier...

As far as the point of entrance, to me, that is the point where they penetrate the outer surface of the building

The service conductors in my drawing "clearly" penetrate the outer surface/covering of the building at the foundation wall first. Without 230.6, the installation as depicted would violate 230.70(A)(1) under strict interpretation. You asked why we needed 230.6, and there you have it by example, even using your definitions.

I don't see either of us agreeing to the others viewpoint on this issue.

Certainly not a suprise to me

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The service conductors in my drawing "clearly" penetrate the outer surface/covering of the building at the foundation wall first. Without 230.6, the installation as depicted would violate 230.70(A)(1) under strict interpretation. You asked why we needed 230.6, and there you have it by example, even using your definitions.

If the foundation was into a crawl space or basement, I would see the penetration of the foundation as entering the building, but not when there is just earth on the other side of the foundation.

 

[kwired]

Just how far below a building does one need to be before you are no longer in the building? If you go deep enough eventually you come out on the other side of the earth. Some places have tunnels not part of the above ground structure under them, some places may have mines or caves below them - usually pretty deep below them. How about the space below a floating structure - especially one that can move?

NEC defines what is considered outside of the building.

 

[hurk27]

Just how far below a building does one need to be before you are no longer in the building? If you go deep enough eventually you come out on the other side of the earth. Some places have tunnels not part of the above ground structure under them, some places may have mines or caves below them - usually pretty deep below them. How about the space below a floating structure - especially one that can move?

NEC defines what is considered outside of the building.

could this help?

230.6(4) Where installed in conduit and under not less than 450 mm (18 in.) of earth beneath a building or other structure

doesn't define the type of conduit? and doesn't have the requirement of a concrete floor above this point, so under the ones saying that the NEC says just inside, then this definition would be impossable to use, or you would have to install the main in a crawlspace?

 

[Smart $]

If the foundation was into a crawl space or basement, I would see the penetration of the foundation as entering the building, but not when there is just earth on the other side of the foundation.

I understand how you see it and agree, but if we go by your definition's of inside/outside, and point of entrance, without a doubt the section of conductors within the foundation wall would be interpreted as being inside the building. Then when it exits the foundation wall it is outside again until it comes up through the floor. I suppose we can ignore the inside nearest the point of entrance if it is not a readily accessible location... but regarding the other post which inspired this one, inside the wall is not a readily accessible location either.

If we adhere strictly to 230.6, the section where the run turns up, below the switchgear, with less than 18" of earth cover, would be inside (more technically, not "considered outside")... but back to "considered outside" outside as it penetrates the floor becaue there it is encased by 2" or more of concrete. :roll: