Service Upgrade Estimate

[aline]

I think both are important, and they are not mutually exclusive, and I am not even sure they are that closely related. I had some siding work done a few years back. I got several quotes. The lowest quote got the bid. He was half the price of the highest quote. He did a superb job. Same brand of siding. Why would I want to pay an extra $7000 to the high bidder? Because he had a nationally recognized name?

About the same time, I got bids for bathroom remodeling. Against my better judgment I went with the high bidder based on my ex-wife's theory that the higher price meant higher quality. I can tell you with some certainty it only meant a higher price.

Did you choose to not read or just ignore this part of my post.

The cheapest guy may do a better job than the most expensive guy. It's hard to know.

All I was saying is price is less important to me than the quality of service and work I receive from a contractor. I'm not saying you should find the highest priced contractor you can and use him and you'll be guaranteed great service and a quality job.

Salesman always tell you that about everything you buy. You have to draw the line somewhere, and especially when the EC directly involved thinks it is not worth doing, what makes you think it is?

I just feel the cost difference isn't enough for me to not go with a 200amp service. But that's just me.
When I built my house I thought a 125amp service was plenty so that's what I installed. But later I decided to add a second kitchen in the basement, a shop in the back and someday would like to add a hot tub and swimming pool. So then I was kicking myself for not installing a 200amp service to begin with.

Interesting note at the bottom of the table that you either chose to ignore, or just missed.
Tip: Due to significant variances in owner compensation, it may be more meaningful to compare Net Income prior to Compensation of Officers.
That means that in reality, small EC are netting about 16.6% profits, rather than the 6.9% reported. Considering that WalMart is lucky to net 1-2%, that is a huge amount.

Actually, there is a line item in the table for benefits and owner compensation, despite your claim to the contrary.
I don't know what the "true" profit is on a job like this. It might be nothing to someone who is not very good at such things. And keep in mind, the main variable, government interference (aka permits and inspections) is not part of the cost shown.

I don't see this line item for owner benefits and compensation in the proprietor table. I see a line item for salary & wages but this is for employees not the owner. I never said there wasn't a line item in the corporation table.

In my opinion net profit is what's left over for the company after all expenses have been paid including the owner's salary and compensation. You don't have a net profit until everyone has been paid including the owner. The owner is an expense to the company just like everything else. If the owner were to take all the profits for himself the company would have 0% net profit.

The 16% net profit you speak of is before the owner is paid and compensated. I don't feel this is truely net profit. How much the owner takes in compensation would determine the true net profit. For evaluating the performance of a company it would make more sense to look at %profit before the owner is compensated since some owners take all profits for themselves leaving a 0% net profit for the company.

 

[aline]

McDonald's operates on a 22% NET profit...own a McDonalds..after all payments, the owner takes home $250,000 on a $1,000,000 gross.

Don't lock the thread...it's fun to watch us actually throw eachother under the bus in real time...you don't always see this happen in person, you just hear about it...

I agree don't lock the thread. Unless there's more important things to discuss such as ground up verses ground down.

 

[aline]

Originally Posted by petersonra
Interesting note at the bottom of the table that you either chose to ignore, or just missed.
Tip: Due to significant variances in owner compensation, it may be more meaningful to compare Net Income prior to Compensation of Officers.
That means that in reality, small EC are netting about 16.6% profits, rather than the 6.9% reported. Considering that WalMart is lucky to net 1-2%, that is a huge amount.

How much is WalMart's profit before officer compensation?

Looks to me like you're comparing Walmart's net profit after officer compensation to small EC net profit before officer compensation.
Not a fair comparison.

The small EC officer compensation might be $60,000 a year compared to the millions paid for officers compensation of Walmart. Some ECs make less than their employees.

Now if Walmart officers were willing to settle for compensation more inline with what the small EC settles for their net profit would be much higher.

 

[aline]

Wal-Mart has a Profit Margin (ttm) of 3.23%. Source: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=WMT

Is this an average over several years or is this for just one quarter?

I would imagine some quarters they would show a loss.

 

[bikeindy]

Is this an average over several years or is this for just one quarter?

I would imagine some quarters they would show a loss.

doubtful. and if I was selling $100,000,000,000.00 worth of electrical service I can say with confidence I would be happy with 3.23% even take out three zeros I'm still happy. Since I don't, can't, never will do that kind of volume I need to have a larger % net.

 

[emahler]

doubtful. and if I was selling $100,000,000,000.00 worth of electrical service I can say with confidence I would be happy with 3.23% even take out three zeros I'm still happy. Since I don't, can't, never will do that kind of volume I need to have a larger % net.

So long as nothing goes wrong...the larger the volume, the larger the potential problems...the profit % better be enough to cover problems should they arise...

 

[TomDx]

First I want to thank everyone for their responses...
The information is very helpful (although I have to admit, some things are over my head)

Second, I want to apologize to anyone who feels this post was not appropriate for the forum. I was hesitant at first, but after reading the posting requirements, I felt that what I wanted to post fell within the forum's guidelines. However, to be honest, I didn't expect it to get past the Moderator... but I'm glad it did. You guys are really the ones with the knowledge I need to tap... I'm not looking for 'free' work or to 'nickel and dime' a contractor... I just want to know what I need (and am getting) and to pay a fair price it.

As for some of the questions directed to me...

1. What is the total square feet of the house?

The outside house measures 35 x 40, so that's 1200 sq ft.
There are 3 levels, but the basement and attic are unfinished.

2. Do you have electric or gas heat? If electric, can you give me the nameplate rating of the equipment (i.e., volts and amps, or volts and watts)?

Gas Heat, Dryer. and Hot water
Electric Range (It's a GE range... that's about all I can tell you)

3. Do you have air conditioning? If so, can you give me the nameplate rating of the equipment?

I have 3 window air conditioners. I'm not sure what you mean by nameplate rating... but they are 5000, 8000, and 15000 BTUS... and they plug in to a standard wall outlet (as opposed to the bigger ones... 220???)

4. Do you have any special, large loads (e.g., swimming pool, hot tub, kiln for making pottery, crane in your garage for replacing car motors, etc.)?

Nope... only thing I can think of that would even come close, is that I am going to buy a 10 x 12 shed and I'm considering running a power line to it... but even at that, it would only be for a light and receptacle.

4)Did you specifically ask for the GFI receptacle, Surge protection, tele relocation? Not that any of that is bad but.... is it required or needed

No, I did not ask for these things... and the fact that they were in the estimate concerned me. Required?... I don't think so... Needed?... Well, I guess the only one that is needed is the relocation of the Verizon equipment. As for the other items, after doing some research they are probably goods things to have and I will probably go with them if I do this.... However, I did no ask for them.

5) dedicated circuit for telephone? Overkill for residential, necessary for commercial. What tele equipment in a 60amp fused house do you have that plugs in?

I guess this wasn't clear... Last November I had Verizon (Internet) FIOS installed. That install requires a box outside and inside the house. The one inside requires a power source. So as to be 'out of sight', the Verizon techs wanted to put it in the basement. However, the basement has only 1 receptacle, which extends about 6 inches off the fuse box (panel?). So in order to have power, Verizon installed their unit and a battery backup on the back board that the service panel is on. The EC is telling me that when the new service goes in, that the Verizon equipment needs to be relocated.

7) have his Insurance company send you a copy of his GL Policy

Sorry, I don't know what a GL policy is...

It's likely the basement has no GFCI protection.

The only outlet in the basement is a regular one that right on the back board of the service panel.

How often do you plan to get a service upgrade?

I hope this is the only time I will ever need to do this.


I had an estimate prior to this that came in at $2800 for 200 Amps. However, and I'm not sure of the cost difference, he was running 50 feet of aluminum wire from the pole to the house, and he didn't specify the quality of the materials so I assume he is not using Square D (which I'm told is top quality). Also, his estimate said nothing about moving the Verizon equipment, or making sure it had an outlet available. I did ask how much to install outlets in the basement... the quote was $195 each. I asked for a quote on installing an outlet in the kitchen and bathroom... they were $425 each. The other day I asked the price of adding a house surge protector to the estimate... that quote was between $250 & $450. That brings him a lot closer to the estimate I posted about, but I have no idea on the materials he would use... Also, his price for outlets seems high, especially the $425 ones... so that is kind of turning me off to him... Oh... I asked him for a price on installing a ceiling fan connected to a switch in the living room... quoted price?... $625, I didn't even bother to ask if that included the fan.

I took the advice given here and have scheduled a 3rd estmate for tomorrow morning (Sat). If this thread is still open, I'll post those numbers when I get them.

One more question if I may... I have 60 Amp fuse service, which even I know is old and outdated... but, I haven't had any problems. The reason I'm looking to upgrade is that more than one person has said I have an accident waiting to happen... Is that an accurate statement, or is what I have just old but OK?

Again, thank you all for tolerating an outsider!!!!.. Have a great weekend!!

Tom

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Hi,

I've received an estimate to upgrade my service, and I'd appreciate any comments as to its reasonableness...

The (Central NJ) house is approx 50 years old, and the current service is 60 Amp (fuse). I'm the only house on our street with underground service, and I'm told that the new service will have to come from above...(the current service runs under a concrete driveway). The distance from the telephone pole to the house is approx 50 ft, and then from the roof to where it enters the basement is approx 20 ft.

Also, I'm looking to upgrade to 200 Amps, but the elctrician is telling me that it's a waste of money, and 150 is plenty... Any thoughts?

I'd really appreciate any feedback... Thanks for you time...



Here is the quote from the electrician...


Upgrade Main Electrical Service & Extra?s

-Remove all existing service entrance materials.
-Install new plywood back board if needed.
-Install new 200amp. Square-D, QO 30s/40 circuit 120/240vac. 3 wire service panel.
-Install surge breaker protection for entire house.
-Install all new circuit breakers properly sized for the branch circuit conductors.
-Install GFCI protected duplex receptacle for service.
-Install new Sch. 40 & 80 PVC conduit, complete with meter pan on exterior of home.
-Install new Tri-Plex from mid-span utility pole to house. (Pending PSE&G approval)
-Install all new grounds & water system bonding.
-Relocate phone system to new back board installed for communications (Verison installed their FIOS on the current service panel).
-Install single receptacle on dedicated circuit for communications equipment.

Labor and Materials $3350.00

*NOTE* Price may be reduced to $3100.00 for a 150amp. 30 circuit service which is plenty of power for your home.


**NOTES**

1. Price does not include permit costs.
2. Price does not include any extra work requested by owner at time of installation.
3. Price is based upon PSE&G?s approval for R&S to install Tri-plex drop.
4. Payments to be made as follows:

Deposit down ($1250.00)

After installation ($1250.00)

Balance plus permit costs after final inspection.

Back to the original question...

I bet, if this home has gas cooking, space & water heating, and a gas clothes dryer, and no central a/c, a 100a service would more than suffice.

 

[bikeindy]

Back to the original question...

I bet, if this home has gas cooking, space & water heating, and a gas clothes dryer, and no central a/c, a 100a service would more than suffice.

I agree totally

 

[LarryFine]

As did I: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=699028&postcount=4

 

[marcerrin]

1) 200 amps
2) why isn't permits included in the cost? get it quoted!
3) never pay money down! Pay in full immediately upon completion only!
If he can't trust you to pay upon completion & How can you trust him not to take your money.
4)Did you specifically ask for the GFI receptacle, Surge protection, tele relocation? Not that any of that is bad but.... is it required or needed
5) dedicated circuit for telephone? Overkill for residential, necessary for commercial. What tele equipment in a 60amp fused house do you have that plugs in?
6) Otherwise, Price is reasonable
7) have his Insurance company send you a copy of his GL Policy

If he lives in the Seattle area, depending on the municipality, permits are nearly impossible to price in some cities around here. I was just assuming Seattle area because he mentioned PSE&G, I could be wrong. For a service change in Seattle it could be $135.00 plus extra for added circuits, where in unincorporated king county its a flat $76.00, whereas in Kirkland its different, and bellevue is different, Renton is different..........and so on.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

The permit costs may not be listed for a completely different reason. I'm not familiar with NJ, but here in NY many residential service upgrades are done under the table, and no permit is pulled and the utility is never notified. This is evident by the sheer number of 150-200a residential OH services I see where fuzzyboxes or some other hack method is used to tie the triplex to the SEU cable. The utility here uses only hydraulic crimp on insulated butt splices.

This might also explain why the original bid denotes the installation of a mid-span triplex, which typically the E.C. never does, unless of course it's being done w/o the utility's knowledge.

 

[TomDx]

I just got my third estimate. The EC gave me a price of $2239.34 for 150 Amp upgrade and $2676.11 for the 200 Amp upgrade... both include the following...

-All contacts with PSE&G
-50' of copper wire from the pole to house
-PVC conduit to outside meter
-Connection from existing underground feed to new service (temporary until PSE&G does whatever it needs to do)
-40 Circuit Square-D panel (I didn't ask about the breakers, I just assume they will be the same type the other EC quoted me for.)
-House surge protector (I can deduct $300 from the price if I don't want it)
-Relocation of Verizon equipment (if necessary)
-Outlet coming off the service panel will be provided for the Verizon equip
-Cleanup
-Work warrentee is 2 years.

Permit(s) NOT included


With the other estimate, for $250 more, I'd have gone with the 200 Amp. However, this one has a spread of $436... which makes the 150 Amp look more attractive... the more facts I get, the more confused I become...:-?


Tom

 

[satcom]

I just got my third estimate. The EC gave me a price of $2239.34 for 150 Amp upgrade and $2676.11 for the 200 Amp upgrade... both include the following...

-All contacts with PSE&G
-50' of copper wire from the pole to house
-PVC conduit to outside meter
-Connection from existing underground feed to new service (temporary until PSE&G does whatever it needs to do)
-40 Circuit Square-D panel (I didn't ask about the breakers, I just assume they will be the same type the other EC quoted me for.)
-House surge protector (I can deduct $300 from the price if I don't want it)
-Relocation of Verizon equipment (if necessary)
-Outlet coming off the service panel will be provided for the Verizon equip
-Cleanup
-Work warrentee is 2 years.

Permit(s) NOT included


With the other estimate, for $250 more, I'd have gone with the 200 Amp. However, this one has a spread of $436... which makes the 150 Amp look more attractive... the more facts I get, the more confused I become...:-?


Tom

"-50' of copper wire from the pole to house"

That has me confused, PSE&G supplies the service drop, not the contractor.

"-Work warrentee is 2 years."

All licensed contractors in NJ have to warrent for 2 years that is the law.

Yes you most likely could make it with a 100A 30 Space Loadcenter, however you might want to consider the 200A Upgrade for resale value, should the home go on the market.

One of the questions I had, does the house have an overhang, that may be requiring a mast installed thru the overhang?

 

[TomDx]

"-50' of copper wire from the pole to house"

That has me confused, PSE&G supplies the service drop, not the contractor.

This may be my misunderstanding... When I got my first estimate, the EC said it would be aluminum wire to the point of entry. I told this last EC that I wanted copper wire... I thought the EC had to supply the wire from the pole to the house (regardless of who string's it).

One of the questions I had, does the house have an overhang, that may be requiring a mast installed thru the overhang?

yes approx six to eight inch overhang... however the last EC made no mention of a 'Mast' being needed....

 

[satcom]

This may be my misunderstanding... When I got my first estimate, the EC said it would be aluminum wire to the point of entry. I told this last EC that I wanted copper wire... I thought the EC had to supply the wire from the pole to the house (regardless of who string's it).



yes approx six to eight inch overhang... however the last EC made no mention of a 'Mast' being needed....

In public service area, an aluminum service drop is provided by them. The service riser is from the meter socket, to the service head, that is most likely what they are providing copper for.

In Central Jersey the only towns that still have copper service drops are Milltown, and South River, I believe South River may have changed over to AL,

I would not be too concerned with the copper, considering the utility is aluminum, the meter socket PSE&G supplies is aluminum, why not stay with aluminum to the meter, then come in the house with copper, if you like.


On the overhang, the service head may be below the overhand, without looking at the existing service, I would just be guessing on it's position.


At first i thought this was a pricing question from a homeowner, as it turns out this post gives the contractor a look, at the customers view of a quoted job.

 

[growler]

I just got my third estimate. The EC gave me a price of $2239.34 for 150 Amp upgrade.
-House surge protector (I can deduct $300 from the price if I don't want it)


With the other estimate, for $250 more, I'd have gone with the 200 Amp. However, this one has a spread of $436... which makes the 150 Amp look more attractive... the more facts I get, the more confused I become...:-?


Tom

I looks to me like you can get a 150 Amp. up-grade for around $2200 to $2300 if you skip the surge protector. That's not a bad price even down here.

I think I would go with the 150 , that's a really small house. Even if you need to change over to an electric water heater or get central air you would be covered.

Down here I always sell a 200 Amp. but many people are switching to heat pumps and the bigger service may be needed. Probably not much use for a heat pump in your area or total electric heat.

 

[satcom]

I looks to me like you can get a 150 Amp. up-grade for around $2200 to $2300 if you skip the surge protector. That's not a bad price even down here.

I think I would go with the 150 , that's a really small house. Even if you need to change over to an electric water heater or get central air you would be covered.

Down here I always sell a 200 Amp. but many people are switching to heat pumps and the bigger service may be needed. Probably not much use for a heat pump in your area or total electric heat.

Dale,
One of the reasons he may be getting a better deal on the 150A is most likely the EC does not have to run a new #4 for the GEC, he can use the existing #6 GEC.
Sure the 150A makes sense.

 

[jrannis]

200 amp upgrade

200 amp upgrade

The secret is out that it really doesn't cost very much more to have the 200 amp service over the 150amp.
But, as we all know, its really hard to get 100amps out of a house. I have done many 200 amp upgrades and have found that with a fully electric 2000 sf house 60 maybe 80 or so amps it just about all you can get with the stove, oven, dryer and 4 ton AC heat turned on.
So, for whatever reason, the standard upgrade is now the 200amp service, using the load calculation examples its easy to get 175 amps out of a house.
I wouldn't have a problem with the price you were quoted unless it was from an unlicensed contractor or moonlighter.
We have had great success offering to install a separate outlet at the telco demark for use with a structured wiring cabinet.

 

[petersonra]

I wouldn't have a problem with the price you were quoted unless it was from an unlicensed contractor or moonlighter.

Whats wrong with moonlighters? This is the good old USA. We welcome people who work harder than the next guy.