Services; Point of Attachment; Art. 230.26

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tadavidson

tadavidson

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Georgia
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Electrical Contractor
I searched the archives and don't find any discussions over this matter. I've worked some places where the Utility provides and mounts the means and recently because of that got cited in another jurisdiction for not providing one. Can anyone provide me where to find, black and white, where it states for the EC to provide the means for the Service Lateral to structure connection means?
 
tadavidson said:
I searched the archives and don't find any discussions over this matter. I've worked some places where the Utility provides and mounts the means and recently because of that got cited in another jurisdiction for not providing one. Can anyone provide me where to find, black and white, where it states for the EC to provide the means for the Service Lateral to structure connection means?
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It is not in the NEC, that will be in the serving utilities service requirements.
 
Requirements can vary from POCO to POCO. Around here one POCO requires an insulated hook the other requires an open hook. Both require the EC to install the hook.
 
infinity said:
Requirements can vary from POCO to POCO. Around here one POCO requires an insulated hook the other requires an open hook. Both require the EC to install the hook.
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How can a gov't Inspector turn it down when it's a requirement of the POCO and not the NEC or other? I understand "hey, it ain't going hot till you put up one" but that shouldn't stop him from it. IMHO. This POCO serves several counties and have in past (in other counties) supplied and installed the hook.
 
infinity said:
Requirements can vary from POCO to POCO. Around here one POCO requires an insulated hook the other requires an open hook. Both require the EC to install the hook.​
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​

tadavidson said:
This POCO serves several counties and have in past (in other counties) supplied and installed the hook.
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Normally the POCO will require a 5/8" bolt through the structure framing which in many cases requires access from the interior of the structure. This could involve cutting an access hole through the wall or ceiling and patching. I doubt that the POCO will get involved with that. I haven't seen "stick pin" insulators allowed for many, many years because they pull out.

-Hal
 
tadavidson said:
I searched the archives and don't find any discussions over this matter. I've worked some places where the Utility provides and mounts the means and recently because of that got cited in another jurisdiction for not providing one. Can anyone provide me where to find, black and white, where it states for the EC to provide the means for the Service Lateral to structure connection means?
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tadavidson said:
Can anyone provide me where to find, black and white, where it states for the EC to provide the means for the Service Lateral to structure connection means?
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I'm not aware of any provision that says the EC shall provide any portion of the service to a structure.

As far as the NEC is concerned the utility can provide as much of the service as they decide to.

As others have stated who ever provides the knob to attach a service drop to a structures should attach it in such a way that it resist being pulled from the building. Some utility line foreman will provide a knob to attach and some will not.

The NEC has "shall" rules that apply to the attachment point. it can be argued who has to follow those rules depending on who takes on the responsibility of providing an attachment point.
 
tadavidson said:
How can a gov't Inspector turn it down when it's a requirement of the POCO and not the NEC or other? I understand "hey, it ain't going hot till you put up one" but that shouldn't stop him from it. IMHO. This POCO serves several counties and have in past (in other counties) supplied and installed the hook.
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If the service drop from the pole is under the exclusive control of the utility {90.2(B)(5)(a)} then I don't see how the guy inspecting the service can require the point of attachment. If the drop is considered service conductors then Part ll of Article 230 should apply.
 
infinity said:
If the service drop from the pole is under the exclusive control of the utility {90.2(B)(5)(a)} then I don't see how the guy inspecting the service can require the point of attachment. If the drop is considered service conductors then Part ll of Article 230 should apply.
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The utility does not have exclusive control over any part of the structure. They do not own the knob once it is attached to the building. Even when the utility provided the meter sockets to the EC once it was attached to the dwelling the utility did not own it they only owned the meter inserted into the socket and the seal they placed to control access to there meter.
 
iwire said:
Not the structure, the equipment and they do have exclusive control of equipment.
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No they do not, they can refuse to hook up there drop to a knob that they have not approved. but they do not have the right to remove the knob even if they installed it after they removed there drop for any reason.

Here if the utility attaches a knob to a building and the structure fails and the knob pulls away that the utility installed, it is not the utilities responsibility.
 
david said:
No they do not, they can refuse to hook up there drop to a knob that they have not approved. but they do not have the right to remove the knob even if they installed it after they removed there drop for any reason.

Here if the utility attaches a knob to a building and the structure fails and the knob pulls away that the utility installed, it is not the utilities responsibility.
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Regardless of how your area does it a utility can in fact have exclusive control over equipment involved in the service. At my own home my meter socket is a equipment they have exclusive control over.

Every area is different, I do not think it is wise to state things as facts when you do not work with every power company.
 
iwire said:
Regardless of how your area does it a utility can in fact have exclusive control over equipment involved in the service. At my own home my meter socket is a equipment they have exclusive control over.

Every area is different, I do not think it is wise to state things as facts when you do not work with every power company.
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so in your area a utility can remove a meter socket from a dwelling leaving the wholes made by the lags that attached the socket to the structure with out your consent?

thats the same thing as saying that a tenant receives permission to install wall paper and feels they have the right to remove it when they vacate the property.

it pretty much case law when something is permanently attach to someones property it becomes part of the property and the installer loses ownership of the property

but it seems your dug in and we can disagree
 
iwire said:
Regardless of how your area does it a utility can in fact have exclusive control over equipment involved in the service. At my own home my meter socket is a equipment they have exclusive control over.

Every area is different, I do not think it is wise to state things as facts when you do not work with every power company.
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david said:
so in your area a utility can remove a meter socket from a dwelling leaving the wholes made by the lags that attached the socket to the structure with out your consent?

thats the same thing as saying that a tenant receives permission to install wall paper and feels they have the right to remove it when they vacate the property.

it pretty much case law when something is permanently attach to someones property it becomes part of the property and the installer loses ownership of the property

but it seems your dug in and we can disagree
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I think you guys are making 2 separate arguments. The utility can refuse to provide, or remove service to my house if the socket does not meet their specs, or has deteriorated to a point that they feel it is compromised. They don't own it though.
 
Any laws here possibly vary from one place to another as well.

I think majority of the time the equipment (except for the meter itself) belongs to the customer. POCO can still have specifications they want followed before they will energize it though. POCO may or may not install some of the equipment. It is often left on site if replaced by the POCO because it was sold to the customer when it was installed and is the customer's property.
 
If I understand the OP the question is can someone inspecting the service on the house require a point of attachment to be installed if it does not fall under the purview of the NEC.
 
infinity said:
If I understand the OP the question is can someone inspecting the service on the house require a point of attachment to be installed if it does not fall under the purview of the NEC.
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The OP gave a reference 230.26 in that reference the NEC has mandatory rules in relationship to the attachment point. There are also mandatory rules in 230.54 in relationship to the point of attachment
The utility has exclusive control over there meter, meter seal, and service drop. They have regulations stating what they want before they energize a service or continue to service a structure, such as the meter height . They do not have control over (the only say) the knob, if a utility regulations stated the knob height to be 9 ft. the NEC 10 ft. requirement would be enforceable by the inspector.



230.54 Overhead Service Locations.
(C) Service Heads and Goosenecks Above Service-Drop Attachment. Service heads and goosenecks in service-entrance cables shall be located above the point of attachment of the service-drop conductors to the building or other structure.

How would an inspector enforce 230.54 if he allowed the service to pass inspection without the point of attachment in place for the inspection?
 
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JohnE said:
I think you guys are making 2 separate arguments. The utility can refuse to provide, or remove service to my house if the socket does not meet their specs, or has deteriorated to a point that they feel it is compromised. They don't own it though.
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But they can own it.

That is my point, just because one power company does not own the POA has nothing to do if another power company does own the POA.

Why is this so tough to understand?
 
david said:
The OP gave a reference 230.26 in that reference the NEC has mandatory rules in relationship to the attachment point. There are also mandatory rules in 230.54 in relationship to the point of attachment
The utility has exclusive control over there meter, meter seal, and service drop. They have regulations stating what they want before they energize a service or continue to service a structure, such as the meter height . They do not have control over (the only say) the knob, if a utility regulations stated the knob height to be 9 ft. the NEC 10 ft. requirement would be enforceable by the inspector.
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Part II of Article 230 applies to Overhead Service Conductors, you need to establish whether the conductors are service conductors or not. In many cases they're not so Part II wouldn't apply.
 
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