jrannis
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Lauderdale/ Miami
growler said:
I agree. Sounds like you have enough ambition to make it.
Good Luck.
Just dont work cheap!
Sidework
- Thread starter peter d
- Start date
- Status
I agree. Sounds like you have enough ambition to make it.
Good Luck.
Just dont work cheap!
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Imagine in this day and age of lawsuits, a guy comming into your house to do some work. On your wiring no less! The guy tells you I'm going to get the permit, all I need from you is to sign this waiver stating that you know I have no insurance so if something goes wrong, well....... good luck to ya!
I know it's legal but still..
Wow.
As for workers comp I don't know if it federally mandated or state level but in MA as a sole proprietor you are not required to carry comp. You can, and you should, although if you do you can not collect from it.
I have it and most GC's require their subs to have it regardless of the size of the business. This is usually brought on by their insurance co because they figure the GCs rates to include all maney paid to subs that do not have their own coverage. An injured sub could legaly file a calim under the GCs policy.
Pete, your sins are forgiven. :grin:
I know it's legal but still..
Wow.
As for workers comp I don't know if it federally mandated or state level but in MA as a sole proprietor you are not required to carry comp. You can, and you should, although if you do you can not collect from it.
I have it and most GC's require their subs to have it regardless of the size of the business. This is usually brought on by their insurance co because they figure the GCs rates to include all maney paid to subs that do not have their own coverage. An injured sub could legaly file a calim under the GCs policy.
Pete, your sins are forgiven. :grin:
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
For anyone interested you can see a Massachusetts permit application at the link. The last section is the "Insurance waiver"
http://www.mass.gov/Eoca/docs/dpl/boards/el/99uep.pdf
http://www.mass.gov/Eoca/docs/dpl/boards/el/99uep.pdf
God forbid a man use his hands and skills to do honest work other than through approved channels?
Sorry but all this litigious talk, references to lowering the bar and taxes and bla bla bla, just makes me wonder just how free we really are.
I am licensed, professional, and not afraid to help my neighbors and friends when it suits me.
Sorry but all this litigious talk, references to lowering the bar and taxes and bla bla bla, just makes me wonder just how free we really are.
I am licensed, professional, and not afraid to help my neighbors and friends when it suits me.
LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
electricalperson said:
I'm gonna have to say no on this. Call an E/C and you have to pay his salary, his profit, his overhead, and then his staff, and the actual person who comes out and does the work, who often sees the least.
GEt the quote (650.00) and reject it, pay the man on the side and for $300.00 the customer got EXACTLY what the would have under the "legal" method and the man doing it doubled his daily wage.
The guy doing the work "on the side" can only do it cheaper because the poor guy that he is working for is paying all of his overhead for him. Things like insurance, steady pay even when work is slow, social security, retirement, vacation, and workman's comp. Eliminate those, not to mention taxes, and everyone could charge much less. Doing side work is stealing from your employer and every other legitimate business just as much as if you took the materials off of his truck to do the work. You can talk around it and justify it anyway you want, but the businessman is following the rules and the side-worker is not. Most people, when they start their own business, are shocked when they find out how much overhead is involved. My wife has a small business selling items on the Internet. She wanted to hire a neighbor to help her out a few hours per week. When she found out how much money and paperwork was involved (tax withholding, Workman's comp, social security) she found that it was going to cause more work that having the employee could save. If you want to do a job for a friend or relative, do your boss a favor and run it through them. You can donate the labor, but let your boss charge something to help with his overhead, and cover you with his insurance. You, your boss, and the customer will all be better off. You may not like the rules (laws) but that does not make them go away.
brantmacga
Señor Member
- Location
- Georgia
- Occupation
- Former Child
haskindm said:
Regardless of the consequences
, I'm going to agree w/ most all of what you said there. There are a few companies around here that have an automatic 'you're fired' clause if they catch an employee doing side work or even buying materials @ the supply house that aren't for the company. I used to work w/ a guy that did a minimum of 20hrs a week in side work, and did it for $15/hr. He got pissed off that the boss didn't put him on salary and only paid him for hours worked; sometimes as little as 15hrs a week. But he should've made enough on side work to cover it. We'd sit around the shop waiting for a call to come him, while all he could talk about was how much work he had waiting for himself.LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
haskindm said:
So, if a journeyman electrician is raking leaves on the side, that's OK, but if he's installing hi hats in his neighbor's finished basement, it's not?
I can tell you quite frankly, that no contractor pays his employee's taxes, insurance, social security, retirement, vacation or worker's comp. All of that money comes from the sale of that man's labor and skills, which he sees relatively little of compared to what it's sold for.
In short, I pay for all those things AND I'm also paying the contractor's way! Along with his wifes, his family's, his secretary and his accountant and dispatcher, and on and on.
Doing side work is no more stealing from an employer than when a different contractor gets the work instead of you. What an employee of yours, or I, do when you're not paying me is none of your business or concern.
I've been around the block. I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. Businessmen do NOT EVER "follow the rules." Especially not contractors. You quote the rules when it suits you. When it doesn't, the rules might as well not exist.
Your example is irrelevant. I have no idea what internet business your wife is in, but there are many thriving internet business' If your wife's profit doesn't justify the overhead of paying an employee, then she must not even be treating herself as an employee - meaning... SHE is doing SIDE WORK ON THE INTERNET while you're covering her overhead, taxes, rent, social security, etc...
But it's ok for you & your family to break the very rules you want everyone else to follow, right?
If I do a job for a friend or relative, it's likely for free. (They'll buy the material.) For any other bona-fide side job, I will not run it by my boss, he's about 100,000 stockholders or more. The work I'd do is work neither my company nor any other I've worked for would even consider touching. So the only contractor I'm "hurting" is the kind that would never employ me - and most probably one that isn't paying anyone's retirement, social security, worker's comp, taxes, vacations, or benefits. And that's fine by me.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
When you are doing this work at the Leper colony ( that no one will touch ) . What makes it so attractive to you? How do you manage to make a profit if no contractor will touch it? What is the advantage of doing side work?
LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
satcom said:
It all depends on your perspective, doesn't it?
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
Yes, and your perspective is that of a person that doesn't have a clue!
I am glad that you can justify your actions by saying that the work you are doing is work that nobody else would do. If that is true, maybe you have found the opportunity to open a business serving a niche that nobody else is serving. I suspect that the truth is that there are many legitimate contractors that would be more than happy to do the work.
Go to the trouble, time and expense of getting your Master Electrician License, purchase the tools trucks and equipment, rent or purchase a space from which to run your business, go to the expense to hire employees, advertise your business, do the accounting or hire an accountant to keep your books, provide training for your employees (either formal or on-the job), buy the needed insurance, and do all of the other things that are needed to run a business in this country; and then tell me you don't feel like you have been raped when you find that your employees are doing side jobs; often soliciting work from your customers while they are on your payroll! Been there, done that and it is one of the major reasons that I closed my business. The actions of my employees contributed to the downfall of the business. While I cleaned out my savings to make payroll, they were doing side jobs for my customers!
The example of my wife's Internet business may be a little off topic. The point was that having employees is expensive. In her case she found that it was more expense and trouble than it was worth, so she decided to stay small enough to do it all herself. It is NOT a side job. She is not doing the same job as her employer "on the side". This is her business and she is her own employer. The business pays its own expenses. She has insurance, pays taxes and social security, submits quarterly income taxes and does all of the things that any other business does. At the end of the year she hopefully shows a profit which is her salary. That is the way it is supposed to work.
It would be great for you to open your own business and I encourage you to do so. I believe that your attitude toward side-work would very quickly change. I am also sorry that your experience has been so poor with businessmen. It is a shame that you have never dealt with an honorable businessman. Perhaps you should get out more. I have met a few crooks, but the majority of people that I have dealt with have been honest, hardworking, upstanding business people. When/if I find that not to be true, I no longer deal with them.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
electricalperson said:
A friend called me the other day, he had tripped a breaker and when he went to reset it, the handle was just flopping around. It was an old Zinsco panel installed sometime in the late 60's or early 70's. He called one of the local guys out, the one with the big trucks and the full page ad in the Yellow pages. By the time the guy was done with his up sell the bid was $7500.00, all my friend wanted was his breaker replaced.
He went out and bought a breaker and I went over and stuck it in for him and his total cost was about $40. If the contractor would have charged him $100 or so, I'm sure my friend would have paid it. So the company that came out didn't get anything out of it and wasted one of their guys, time as many of you will agree, because they gave a "free estimate".
I know we've had this discussion before and I know that many of you don't agree with me, but there is no such thing as a small job.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
I think it is important to obey the law, but as long as the law allows someone to do the work, I am not opposed to a person doing so who does not have all the overhead of a full line EC.
A guy who is in the residential service business probably does not need a service truck stuffed full of goodies that would only be used in an industrial job.
He can run the thing from his kitchen table and his cell phone so does not need the overhead of an office and secretary.
And he can charge a whole lot less then a full ine EC can and probably net more off it to himself because there is so much less overhead. Even better if if his wife works for a government entity and has near free health insurance for him so he doesn't have to pay for that himself.
A guy who is in the residential service business probably does not need a service truck stuffed full of goodies that would only be used in an industrial job.
He can run the thing from his kitchen table and his cell phone so does not need the overhead of an office and secretary.
And he can charge a whole lot less then a full ine EC can and probably net more off it to himself because there is so much less overhead. Even better if if his wife works for a government entity and has near free health insurance for him so he doesn't have to pay for that himself.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
cowboyjwc said:
If they had charged $100 sure your friend would have paid it and they would have made a big fat $60 over materials cost. If they did the same thing 4 times that day the would have brought in about $240. If they do that every day for a week they end up with $1200 for the week and they probably pay the service electrician more than that. I have herd that inspectors in your area make more ( herd it from you).
On the other hand if they up sale to four customers and get 25 percent to purchase then they may clear about 5 grand in two days or 10 grand for the week.
If you were working for this company I think you would prefer the second option because with the first option the company would be out of business in about a month and you would need to look for another job in a poor job market.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA
growler said:
$60 or $0 I guess that is a choice you have to make, too.
In the time it took the guy to upsell, he could have installed that breaker and simply suggested that some other work may need to be done and he could have moved on to the next call, and, that one may be the 25% you talk about. Instead he walked away from a person that will never call or recommmend them again.
I'm not sure what the actual numbers were, but someone once told me, something to the fact, that for every customer you take care of they will tell one person and for every one you don't take care of they will tell 10.
LawnGuyLandSparky
Senior Member
emahler said:
Who is more likely to to have a bias? And who is more likely to implement their personal opinion as unquestionable policy. Don;t confuse any of that with right or wrong.
What is the first rule in any business enterprise?
- Status