Sidework

[BryanMD]

In the time it took the guy to upsell, he could have installed that breaker and simply suggested that some other work may need to be done and he could have moved on to the next call, and, that one may be the 25% you talk about. Instead he walked away from a person that will never call ***or recommend them again***

I'm not sure what the actual numbers were, but someone once told me, something to the fact, that for every customer you take care of they will tell one person and for every one you don't take care of they will tell 10.

A very good analysis of the flip side of the salesman-electrician.

Six months from now when the HVAC guy sells them on a new heat pump and they really do need to upgrade the service who isn't going to be called?

 

[growler]

Instead he walked away from a person that will never call or recommmend them again.

John if this guy is a friend that means he knows you so why didn't he call you and ask you to recommend a reasonably priced contractor?

Those old Zensco panels have a reputation of being fire starters so what happens if this guy's house burns down because all he wanted was to replace a breaker? I'm sure that he would never ever tell anyone that the local electrical inspector was the last person to do work at the home ( for free ) because he's a friend, right.

Someone once told me that no good deed goes unpunished. :grin:

I have found this adage to actually be true.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Yes, and your perspective is that of a person that doesn't have a clue!

I am glad that you can justify your actions by saying that the work you are doing is work that nobody else would do. If that is true, maybe you have found the opportunity to open a business serving a niche that nobody else is serving. I suspect that the truth is that there are many legitimate contractors that would be more than happy to do the work.

What I said was, it's work my boss, nor any of my proir employers would do. I'm not competing with them.

Go to the trouble, time and expense of getting your Master Electrician License, purchase the tools trucks and equipment, rent or purchase a space from which to run your business, go to the expense to hire employees, advertise your business, do the accounting or hire an accountant to keep your books, provide training for your employees (either formal or on-the job), buy the needed insurance, and do all of the other things that are needed to run a business in this country; and then tell me you don't feel like you have been raped when you find that your employees are doing side jobs; often soliciting work from your customers while they are on your payroll!

If I wanted to become a legitimate contractor, that's the route I'd take. As it happens, I'm content being an employee, I find it's more lucrative and less stressful. Honestly, the field of contracting here is saturated, the effort to startup today wouldn't be worth the payoff. Does this mean I must relegate myself to the earnings my employer sees fit to pay me? Heck no - I have a skill, a marketable skill. And I'm not going to let anybody tell me what I can and cannot do when I'm off the clock. You forget you stop being the boss when the cash flow stops.

If I had a legitimate business, I wouldn't be blind to the fact that electricians, in fact all tradesmen that I know of save maybe the ironworkers (who the heck need ironwork done on the side?) do side jobs. It's been going on since the dawn of mankind. I would be going inot business knowing that an employee would do this.

Been there, done that and it is one of the major reasons that I closed my business. The actions of my employees contributed to the downfall of the business. While I cleaned out my savings to make payroll, they were doing side jobs for my customers!

An unfortunate experience for you I'm sure. Your opinion is that the side work put you out of business. I hold a different opinion. I have plenty of coworkers who not only don't do side work, they won't even touch the wiring in their own homes.

The example of my wife's Internet business may be a little off topic. The point was that having employees is expensive. In her case she found that it was more expense and trouble than it was worth, so she decided to stay small enough to do it all herself. It is NOT a side job. She is not doing the same job as her employer "on the side". This is her business and she is her own employer. The business pays its own expenses. She has insurance, pays taxes and social security, submits quarterly income taxes and does all of the things that any other business does. At the end of the year she hopefully shows a profit which is her salary. That is the way it is supposed to work.

Granted. Bad example. We could get into the history of how and why licensing came to pass and permits, inspections, etc.... but the final anaylisis is that it happens when groups of contractors, tired of competing with their own employees, collude to shrink the available manpower and control it for their own gain.

It would be great for you to open your own business and I encourage you to do so. I believe that your attitude toward side-work would very quickly change. I am also sorry that your experience has been so poor with businessmen. It is a shame that you have never dealt with an honorable businessman. Perhaps you should get out more. I have met a few crooks, but the majority of people that I have dealt with have been honest, hardworking, upstanding business people. When/if I find that not to be true, I no longer deal with them.

My only experiences with working for poor businessmen happened before I joined the local. Until then I didn't know what or how the business, or the industry really worked.

 

[cowboyjwc]

John if this guy is a friend that means he knows you so why didn't he call you and ask you to recommend a reasonably priced contractor?

Those old Zensco panels have a reputation of being fire starters so what happens if this guy's house burns down because all he wanted was to replace a breaker? I'm sure that he would never ever tell anyone that the local electrical inspector was the last person to do work at the home ( for free ) because he's a friend, right.

Someone once told me that no good deed goes unpunished. :grin:

I have found this adage to actually be true.

Well I call everyone friend:smile: Actually he's just a coworker in another department in the City. And that is why he finally called me, once he got over the typical homeowner panic. Plus we're not really supposed to recommend people, but they consider it all right if I give you two or three names

I've been in the trades for 30 years and an inspector for 18 and have never seen a fire that was attributied soley to a Zinsco panel. Guess I look at helping someone doing electrical work the same as helping someone move. I could always drop the box with their greatgrandmothers china in it. You ask a friend you get what you pay for.:roll:

And as for the no good turn part, yep been there done that.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

A very good analysis of the flip side of the salesman-electrician.

Six months from now when the HVAC guy sells them on a new heat pump and they really do need to upgrade the service who isn't going to be called?

Consumers aren't stupid. Most are familiar with the upsell tactics and have prepared a defense. Ever buy an appliance lately? Who needs a service agreement for a toaster oven? OR a new credit agreement to buy it?

I walk into Jiffy Lube every 3 months and already have the whole defense ready: "I'd like JUST 5 quarts of 5W-20 AND a new air filter AND nothing else please."

 

[cowboyjwc]

A very good analysis of the flip side of the salesman-electrician.

Six months from now when the HVAC guy sells them on a new heat pump and they really do need to upgrade the service who isn't going to be called?

Exactly..........(did that so it would post)

 

[growler]

Well I call everyone friend:smile: Actually he's just a coworker in another department in the City.

I believe you are right after all John this coworker will tell ten people about the great service and the great price. He will tell all his friends not to bother calling a high priced electrician they can just call the good old electrical inspector because he does this sort of thing for free. The good part is that the first guy you refuse to help or try to charge is going to hate your guts because you helped everyone else for free.

If I hadn't make the same mistake once upon a time then I wouldn't say this. :grin:

 

[Rewire]

I simply fire anyone I find doing side work.I do not pass on any work so any "side" job done is in direct compitition against me and I don't pay a competitor.

 

[peter d]

Pete, your sins are forgiven. :grin:

What a relief!!!

 

[stickboy1375]

This thread will accomplish nothing more than aggravate Employers and Employees alike.

 

[peter d]

This thread will accomplish nothing more than aggravate Employers and Employees alike.

Perhaps it will. But maybe this is something to get aggravated about?

In the end, it's probably a losing battle, and nothing will change. The economy is slowing and sidework will probably increase, not decrease. I can't change that and I don't intend to.

I'm just hoping people will give more thought to this issue than "I make some extra cash on the side."

 

[stickboy1375]

Perhaps it will. But maybe this is something to get aggravated about?

In the end, it's probably a losing battle, and nothing will change. The economy is slowing and sidework will probably increase, not decrease. I can't change that and I don't intend to.

I'm just hoping people will give more thought to this issue than "I make some extra cash on the side."

I've done my share of sidework, but to be frank, I grew tired of it, working late and on weekends. I have to agree with the Employers on this subject, they earned the right to be angry at trunk-slammers, and I really can't say I blame them.

 

[BryanMD]

I've done my share of sidework, but to be frank, I grew tired of it, working late and on weekends. I have to agree with the Employers on this subject, they earned the right to be angry at trunk-slammers, and I really can't say I blame them.

I think the employer has the right to have whatever rules or conditions of employment he desires (within the limits of the law) and CLEARLY communicates these 'policies' at the outset of hiring.

But I also think each employee has the right to a) not work for the guy if he isn't willing to comply and b) to push the envelope of what he can get away with short of being fired.

 

[peter d]

I have to agree with the Employers on this subject, they earned the right to be angry at trunk-slammers, and I really can't say I blame them.

I've been looking really closely at the business end of the trade in the past year (I crunched the numbers for what it would take to go out on my own), and I've come to the conclusion that running business can be very rewarding, BUT:

-It's expensive
-Depending on where you live it can be highly regulated
-It's demanding of time and energy
-It's much harder than the average electrician thinks it is

Sidework has many short term benefits for the person who does it, but in the long term it hinders the ability of EC's to charge higher rates for their work because the assumption is that EC's can and will work cheaply. If someone can prove me wrong about this, I'm all ears.

 

[satcom]

I've been looking really closely at the business end of the trade in the past year (I crunched the numbers for what it would take to go out on my own), and I've come to the conclusion that running business can be very rewarding, BUT:

-It's expensive
-Depending on where you live it can be highly regulated
-It's demanding of time and energy
-It's much harder than the average electrician thinks it is

Sidework has many short term benefits for the person who does it, but in the long term it hinders the ability of EC's to charge higher rates for their work because the assumption is that EC's can and will work cheaply. If someone can prove me wrong about this, I'm all ears.

I give you a lot of credit, for looking before you leap, one of the more serious issues with side work, is when there is damage or injury on the side job, it can become a life changing experience, and destroy the lifes, of everyone envolved.

These same guys are the it will never happen to me gang.

Nor do they care about, the owners life, and property.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I believe you are right after all John this coworker will tell ten people about the great service and the great price. He will tell all his friends not to bother calling a high priced electrician they can just call the good old electrical inspector because he does this sort of thing for free. The good part is that the first guy you refuse to help or try to charge is going to hate your guts because you helped everyone else for free.

If I hadn't make the same mistake once upon a time then I wouldn't say this. :grin:

Actually most of them don't even bother asking me and haven't for years. At one, at the same time, I was President of the Southern California Chapter of the IAEI, I was the President of the Simi Valley Historical Society, I was the President of Simi Valley Little League, I was managing a team, and I was enrolled in Leadership Simi Valley. I had to have a day planner just so I would remember to wash my socks:grin:

Guys in my office have paid electricians to do work for them rather than wait for me:grin:

Baseball season hasn't started yet and this is the most free time I've had in 5 years and I'm kind of sitting back and enjoying it. I haven't even hung the ceiling fans in my house that I've had in a box for two years.:roll:

 

[qcroanoke]

I give you a lot of credit, for looking before you leap, one of the more serious issues with side work, is when there is damage or injury on the side job, it can become a life changing experience, and destroy the lifes, of everyone envolved.

These same guys are the it will never happen to me gang.

Nor do they care about, the owners life, and property.

"Nor do they care about, the owners life, and property."


I do not agree with that at all.
Does being licensed,insured and bonded also make you all caring
and incapable of error?
Cheap shot. IMO

 

[~Shado~]

I agree, side work has and always will be around, and it will increase due to the economy right now. I too did my share of it in the past but quit due to time away from family. I however, never took/stole work nor customers directly from my employers. It was usually word of mouth from friends, family, etc.
A few of my past employers would actually pass resi work onto me since they were commercial primarily. They would pull permits, let me buy material on their accounts, and I could work during company hours when we were slow. They would even help me bid at full rates and pass the funds thru to me without taking their share. I appreciated it very much and always thanked them. Now this wasn't 20+ hours every week, but, perhaps once twice a month. Their theory was simply, I wasn't cheating them, I was gaining experience, and making a few more bucks to insure I had a good ride, bills paid, etc...and no lame excuse as to why I couldnt make it to work.

After I opened my own company, doing whatever needed to make a living, I ran into a friend just out on his own. He was complaining about friends, family wanting work for free. I told him, the only people who get free work from me are my mom and dad. Other family, friends...nope...perhaps a discount, but not free. And discounts were limited to only 10%. He couldn't believe it! Was wondering how everyone took it when I informed them of no freebies. I told him we were in business to make money, period. A discount is still saving them money and we are still making money.

 

[JohnE]

Peter, good for you for starting this thread. Sincerely, not sarcastically.

But I doubt it will influence anyone in their thinking.

FWIW, I think that there is a type of customer who always wants or thinks he is getting a deal by hiring a moonlighter. And a very different type who wants a legitimate contractor. I've posted those thoughts in one of Scott's threads. What's funny though is that when the moonlighter goes into a full time business, most of his customers will be looking for another moonlighter.

 

[satcom]

"Nor do they care about, the owners life, and property."


I do not agree with that at all.
Does being licensed,insured and bonded also make you all caring
and incapable of error?
Cheap shot. IMO

And just what is your expertise, in business experience.

When they enter a customers home, uninsured and preform any work, they already prove their are careless, and have no regard for the homeowner.

When you get all the licenses, permits, and insurance where required
you are showing that you care about the customers property, by having the needed insurances.

Cheap shot, is that the guy doing the side work?