Sidework

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BryanMD said:
I think the employer has the right to have whatever rules or conditions of employment he desires (within the limits of the law) and CLEARLY communicates these 'policies' at the outset of hiring.

But I also think each employee has the right to a) not work for the guy if he isn't willing to comply and b) to push the envelope of what he can get away with short of being fired. ;)
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An employment contract is not a marriage. Would you tell me what to wear on Saturday? But it's OK to tell me you'd better not see me at the supply house on Saturday?

There's 168 hours in a week. An employer only pays for 40 of them.
 
peter d said:
I've been looking really closely at the business end of the trade in the past year (I crunched the numbers for what it would take to go out on my own), and I've come to the conclusion that running business can be very rewarding, BUT:

-It's expensive
-Depending on where you live it can be highly regulated
-It's demanding of time and energy
-It's much harder than the average electrician thinks it is

Sidework has many short term benefits for the person who does it, but in the long term it hinders the ability of EC's to charge higher rates for their work because the assumption is that EC's can and will work cheaply. If someone can prove me wrong about this, I'm all ears. :)
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I don't think anyone has disagreed with this. Nobody's questioning the facts or the givens. The issue here is, is this right or wrong. I doubt there will be a consensus.
 
j_erickson said:
Peter, good for you for starting this thread. Sincerely, not sarcastically.

But I doubt it will influence anyone in their thinking.
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Thank you. :) I know that people's minds are made up on this issue, but believe me, I'm only raising the issue because I actually enjoy this trade and I want to see successful companies grow and prosper. It's good for all of us. :) It would also be nice for this trade to shed its reputation for undercutting and backstabbing.

I know that the craigslist crowd and sidejobbing will never go away, but it sure would be nice if it didn't have such a direct impact on our trade.
 
satcom said:
I give you a lot of credit, for looking before you leap, one of the more serious issues with side work, is when there is damage or injury on the side job, it can become a life changing experience, and destroy the lifes, of everyone envolved.

These same guys are the it will never happen to me gang.

Nor do they care about, the owners life, and property.
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Typically, a customer calls an EC, the EC sends an electrician, and the work is done, a check is cut, end of story.

If that electrician does this work on the side after the customer says "no way am I paying 2,900.00 for a 200a service." The job will go to some other contractor, or the electrician who was initially sent, on the side. And the job will be done and get done exactly the same way it would have under the "legitimate" method.

As for the doom & gloom speech... whatever works for you. But let's be realistic - this isn't about safety. It's about money. If you want to argue the principals, tell me how many electrical contractors actually DIRECTLY SUPERVISE their employees? I wouldn't know the license holders of 8 of the last 10 shops I worked for if I tripped over them in the street. Like I said, the written rules and regulations are only quoted when it suits the contractor.
 
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qcroanoke said:
"Nor do they care about, the owners life, and property."


I do not agree with that at all.
Does being licensed,insured and bonded also make you all caring
and incapable of error?
Cheap shot. IMO
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what an incredibly ridiculous question...off course it makes us caring...it shows that we care enough to follow the laws and do the right thing, so that if we make an error, our customer is protected...

are you serious with this question?
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
An employment contract is not a marriage. Would you tell me what to wear on Saturday? But it's OK to tell me you'd better not see me at the supply house on Saturday?

There's 168 hours in a week. An employer only pays for 40 of them.
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most state licensing boards may disagree with your thinking...

is this the same line of thinking that fails to differentiate between legal and illegal immigrants?
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
Typically, a customer calls an EC, the EC sends an electrician, and the work is done, a check is cut, end of story.

If that electrician does this work on the side after the customer says "no way am I paying 2,900.00 for a 200a service." The job will go to some other contractor, or the electrician who was initially sent, on the side. And the job will be done and get done exactly the same way it would have under the "legitimate" method.

As for the doom & gloom speech... whatever works for you. But let's be realistic - this isn't about safety. It's about money. If you want to argue the principals, tell me how many electrical contractors actually DIRECTLY SUPERVISE their employees? I wouldn't know the license holders of 8 of the last 10 shops I worked for if I tripped over them in the street. Like I said, the written rules and regulations are only quoted when it suits the contractor.
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here is the flaw with that thinking...

$2900 is what's needed to pay for all the overhead and salary that that employee collects each week...it pays for the advertising that brought that call in, it pays for the truck full of tools that got the guy there, it pays for the employees wages and taxes, it pays for his healthcare, 401K, vacation, etc...

undercut it enough times, and that electrician is now unemployed, no benefits, no company van, etc...and now he's either on to another shop for him to harm, or trying to scratch out a living paying his own way.

but hey, have at it...all bosses do nothing but get rich off the sweat of the workers...damn tyrants, just rolling in money, while the poor worker does everything...good lord..
 
emahler said:
but hey, have at it...all bosses do nothing but get rich off the sweat of the workers...damn tyrants, just rolling in money, while the poor worker does everything...good lord..
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Some employees want to have their cake and eat it too I guess. :rolleyes:
(spoken by an employee)
 
peter d said:
Some employees want to have their cake and eat it too I guess. :rolleyes:
(spoken by an employee)
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peter, some people get it, some don't...it has to be a 2 way street...if either side is only out for themselves, it's a losing proposition...i gotta treat the employees right so they treat me right...they gotta treat me right, so I treat them right...
 
peter d said:
Some employees want to have their cake and eat it too I guess. :rolleyes:
(spoken by an employee)
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One thing that I think about while reading this thread is why the employee would want to work after work to begin with, is it his current salary? desire to set a new record as to how many hours one can work in a week? I know I have no desire to do MORE electrical work after work. Obviously its all about the money, but why can't an electrical employee make enough at work? Do other trades feel the need to moonlite?
 
emahler said:
is this the same line of thinking that fails to differentiate between legal and illegal immigrants?
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I'll bet if LawnGuyLand Sparky and his brother electricians down at the local were replaced by a crew of illegal immigrants so that job cost could be brought down they would view all these rules a little different.

Who cares if it's legal or not that's where the money is.

I remember when the people that worked at Chrysler were all driving Toyotas and tought it was a big joke. They don't laugh as much now.
 
What Did I miss !

What Did I miss !

growler said:
I believe you are right after all John this coworker will tell ten people about the great service and the great price. He will tell all his friends not to bother calling a high priced electrician they can just call the good old electrical inspector because he does this sort of thing for free. The good part is that the first guy you refuse to help or try to charge is going to hate your guts because you helped everyone else for free.

If I hadn't make the same mistake once upon a time then I wouldn't say this. :grin:
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No, I believe of ten people only two or three will forward or recommend a service, 4-6 will cry foul, I beleive that is the stat...

As for the others, sometimes, is just what it is, a Wild West Show! & that includes the total thread line... It'd be paragraph of Quotes, and pure humor to address this...

I think Everyone got'n all wrapped up! Maybe I Got It wrong again Peter,
I thought it was an opening Statement of Holding your head high, and a Top of the day to YA, I'm an Electrican!
 
stickboy1375 said:
desire to set a new record as to how many hours one can work in a week? I know I have no desire to do MORE electrical work after work.
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Yeah, when I did sidework I never had a spare weekend or evening available. I was always working. Then I just got sick of it. It became a quality of life issue, and you can't put a price on that (well, I can't anyway).
 
stickboy1375 said:
One thing that I think about while reading this thread is why the employee would want to work after work to begin with, is it his current salary? desire to set a new record as to how many hours one can work in a week? I know I have no desire to do MORE electrical work after work. Obviously its all about the money, but why can't an electrical employee make enough at work? Do other trades feel the need to moonlite?
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when you are in the small resi/commercial sector, one of the factors that helps keep down wages is the need to remain competitive on price with the moonlighters....

sounds ridiculous, but for the guy who does small renovations, additions, etc...doesn't spend money on advertising (relies on word of mouth) and doesn't have the capital or experience to go after larger work...his competition includes not only the legal trunk slammers, but the illegal ones as well..
 
cowboyjwc said:
I've been in the trades for 30 years and an inspector for 18 and have never seen a fire that was attributied soley to a Zinsco panel.
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Cowboy, you haven't seen too many Zinsco panels then. I change out probably one a month that has caught fire or melted down. (I'll have to start taking pictures and posting them) I don't believe you're doing anyone any favors by just "changing a breaker" on a Zinsco panel.
 
I'm struggling now, (financially) but once the kids get to school full time and my wife goes back to work hopefully things will be back to normal. Sure side work sounds tempting especially when you get a $600.00 oil delivery bill, But in the end, its just not worth it. IMO.
 
emahler said:
here is the flaw with that thinking...

$2900 is what's needed to pay for all the overhead and salary that that employee collects each week...it pays for the advertising that brought that call in, it pays for the truck full of tools that got the guy there, it pays for the employees wages and taxes, it pays for his healthcare, 401K, vacation, etc...

undercut it enough times, and that electrician is now unemployed, no benefits, no company van, etc...and now he's either on to another shop for him to harm, or trying to scratch out a living paying his own way.

but hey, have at it...all bosses do nothing but get rich off the sweat of the workers...damn tyrants, just rolling in money, while the poor worker does everything...good lord..
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Here's the flaw with your thinking - just because you open a business contracting for work, doesn't entitle you the exclusive right to it. Part of your business requires you hire skilled people. Skilled people whose product value is transportable. Further, a customer wants electrical work done. Not to have to be forced to support a shop super, a dispatcher, a receptionist, or the local yellow pages ad salesman. Why should a residential service call requiring one breaker, have to pay in part for a warehouse full of conduit?


Why do you purchase material wholesale, cutting out the supply house when you need 10,000 2x4 layins? What about the supply house's overhead?

Ever go grocery shopping at a wholesale club? What about those poor local grocers? Aren't they entitled to a piece of that action?
 
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