Sidework

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emahler said:
Ya just don't see the whole picture, do ya?

the majority of contractors are small, and are competing for work with sidejobbers and uneducated contractors...How do you pay a guy more, when someone else is always driving market prices down?
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Maybe you just don't get me yet?

My point is that it *isn't* an either or scenario.
But there is a LOT of antagonism on both sides.

BOTH EC's *and* their employee's will benefit more by working together than by working against each other.

In another thread (income) I just blew out some serious numbers about what the small small EC's are up against. In this thread I'm trying to show the bigger EC's that those new/small guys ALL came from some other employer for a reason.
 
I feel bad for people like my friend. He's been in the buissness 20 years and is a great all around electrician. Cuts in a panel that looks like Michaleanglo painting. But he is an awfull test taker.

But recently he told me he was doing a service upgrade 100a to 200a for 950 bucks. So I tried to explain to him why its was bad for him in the long run but he just gave me a blank stare.

Maybe someone should come out with a flyer of why its bad for the industry.
Some one that can expalin it better. Its really surprising to find so many men selling themselves short like this. Why charge someone 950 when they are willing and in many cases expecting to pay more?

Sidejobbers, station wagon electricians, weekend warriors, its time to wake up. Why work your ass off for 250- 300 for the day when you an get alot more? Im a fairly new buisness owner so i dont turn down much.
 
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I did side work as soon as I knew enough to do it....probably a few months in.

I wasn't insured or licensed.

I tried to charge as much as the contractors were getting and I put the money in my pocket.....but it never stayed there long with things like the mortgage, gas and food eating it up.

Side work helped me get by when I was young and I'd be a bit of a hipocrite if I didn't allow my guys to do it. MOST of them don't want to do it. One guys works most every weekend to pick up extra cash for his family. I understand and appreciate what he is going thru. I was there myself 30 years ago.

I understand the big picture but I am more concerned with the small picture....my friends/family/employees. Without them I'm only one electrician.
 
tonyou812 said:
I dont think you understand that i am trying to help these poor guys out. Why would you charge such a small rate? Most of these people will pay more.
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He can charge $950 because he is probably making about $20 an hour, so he' making about $800 a week, taking home $?. So he just bought $400 worth of parts, give or take, and just made $550 for about 5 or 6 hours of work. He just made $90 an hour, again, give or take. It's a lot more simple to understand before you have a successful business than after. After, if you are clearing $50 an hour on a regular bases (after expenses and of course this is just a WAG) and that's what you need to live on, why would you think that everyone else only needs $20 an hour to live? And yes I knew what the job paid when I took it and yes, I can go out and start my own business if I want, and in the end you'll still be competing with me.

electricguy61 said:
Cowboy, you haven't seen too many Zinsco panels then. I change out probably one a month that has caught fire or melted down. (I'll have to start taking pictures and posting them) I don't believe you're doing anyone any favors by just "changing a breaker" on a Zinsco panel.
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Seen 'em, installed 'em, got tracs of houses here with them in them. Some people just don't have $7500 laying around to spend on electrical work.

P.S. I do love these kinds of discussions, but I do agree with the point that this is a war that neither sid will ever win.
 
I wonder how LawnGuySparky's Union Brothers would feel if instead of doing side work, he told them he was working for a non-union shop in the evening and on weekends. Would they object to that? After all he is not "married" to the union and they shouldn't be able to tell him what to do after he puts in his 40 hours....
 
haskindm said:
I wonder how LawnGuySparky's Union Brothers would feel if instead of doing side work, he told them he was working for a non-union shop in the evening and on weekends. Would they object to that? After all he is not "married" to the union and they shouldn't be able to tell him what to do after he puts in his 40 hours....
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I once worked with a guy who was 'one the bench' at the hall. He hired on at a temp agency to he could work in order to pay his bills. Union told him to stop it or they'd let him go permanently.
 
Been to two of Mike Holt's live estimating presentations. His mantra was "Know Your Cost". Trunk slammer or not, you can proceed from there, it just takes some of us longer to figure out what 'cost' is . . . By that time we have pissed it away for the real contractors . . .

Best Wishes Everyone in 2008
 
Bring me the work.I tell my guys if you bring it in you get a bonus.Until we employers draw the line "side work" will continue to drag down the market.I make it clear to everyone who works for me I will not tolerate any side work and if caught you loose your job.I know other contractors are picking up on this in my area.
 
emahler said:
well, lets think about this for a second...according to the latest study by [Electrical Contractor Magazine...

62% of all EC's have from 1-9 employees
68% of all EC's have annual revenue of less than $1mil
42% of all EC's have annual revenue of less than $250,000
(think about that one for a minute)

so, according to your thinking, all these legitimate EC's that make a living on the small service and repair work, are in the wrong market?
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No, they're in a market FLOODED with electrical contractors who do the "easy work" that just about ANY electrician or electrical contractor can and will do. Competition is fierce. So the market is limited, it's flooded, and it's difficult to increase your company's share of it.

if you were a contractor, you would know that one of the worst markets for a small contractor to go into is working for small GC's...this is one of the best ways to go out of business...

if you are in the 38% of companies that have 10 or more employees, go after larger GC's that actually know what they are doing...
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But to do that, you have to be prepared to take on the bigger work and complete it successfully. Most electricians (the ones who spent a good portion of their lives working for a smaller, 1-9 employee shop) have absolutely no clue on how to manage a job where 50 electricians start at 7am and will be there only 6 weeks.

Then there's the issue of biting off more than you can chew. Lacking access to the labor pool necessary to take on a large job for a large GC, you work the labor pool you have longer than 40 hours a week, thereby reducing profits and decreasing the overall efficiency of each individual worker.

for the other 62% of contractors (especially the 42% that are under $250k) don't worry about sidejobbers, they are only doing work you don't want...

this is why i'm against the code requiring TR receptacles, let darwinism do it's job folks...
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haskindm said:
I wonder how LawnGuySparky's Union Brothers would feel if instead of doing side work, he told them he was working for a non-union shop in the evening and on weekends. Would they object to that? After all he is not "married" to the union and they shouldn't be able to tell him what to do after he puts in his 40 hours....
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And, it's 35 hours, not 40.
 
haskindm said:
I wonder how LawnGuySparky's Union Brothers would feel if instead of doing side work, he told them he was working for a non-union shop in the evening and on weekends. Would they object to that? After all he is not "married" to the union and they shouldn't be able to tell him what to do after he puts in his 40 hours....
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More important what would the BA say,the local union contract here say as a member you will not contract work.Dont know about other locals but it would probably be the same.
 
Soooooo....... I spent 4 years working as an apprentice and 300 hours of classroom time not to mention thousands of dollars to get my license for what?


My boss is the only one allowed to make money?


I suppose I should just go to work and be happy to make what I make and maybe after work, to make a little extra money (since doing side work would be wrong) I can go to my bosses two million dollar mansion and clean his pool, wax his wife's new BMW, and if I'm really lucky maybe he'll let me cut his grass!

I do not do side work because I enjoy spending all of my free time working, I do it to make money so I can provide a better quality of life for me and my family. How dare anyone criticize me for that! I have a Masters Lic., liability ins., pull permits, and pay taxes. I have just as much a right to that work as anyone else does.


This is an issue that will never be resolved! We can go round about forever.


If contractors paid their guys enough to live, maybe they would not have to do side work. On the other hand if contractors didn't have to compete with guys doing side work, they might be able to charge more and therefore pay their guys more. TOP pay for guys in my area (central MA) is low 30s, which is about enough to get by. I do not like living paycheck to paycheck and am not satisfied to just " get by". There is no right answer!

The only answer I have is that I will continue to do side work when it comes my way. If I am so naive about business and the "real" contractors are such smart business men then I am sure they are not concerned about me because I am no competition, I'm just a stupid "trunk slammer"!
 
EBFD6 said:
Soooooo....... I spent 4 years working as an apprentice and 300 hours of classroom time not to mention thousands of dollars to get my license for what?


My boss is the only one allowed to make money?

I have a Masters Lic., liability ins., pull permits, and pay taxes.
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Is there something that will not allow you to get your contractors lic. ?


Or are you expecting some special treatment?
 
EBFD6 said:
I suppose I should just go to work and be happy to make what I make and maybe after work, to make a little extra money (since doing side work would be wrong) I can go to my bosses two million dollar mansion and clean his pool, wax his wife's new BMW, and if I'm really lucky maybe he'll let me cut his grass!
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Yeah, I'm sure he got that BMW and that mansion from sitting around and doing nothing. :rolleyes:

The bottom line is that if he has that stuff, good for him and I'm glad that all the financial and personal risk he's taken to run a business has paid off. I guess he should buy you a BMW too because you work for him, right?

As I said earlier in this thread, most electricians have no clue how to run a business or what's involved. (I'm not a business owner either.) I understand the the costs involved and the risk. I'm quite happy to see successful EC's like your boss reap the rewards of the trade.
 
EBFD6 said:
Soooooo....... I spent 4 years working as an apprentice and 300 hours of classroom time not to mention thousands of dollars to get my license for what?


My boss is the only one allowed to make money?


I suppose I should just go to work and be happy to make what I make and maybe after work, to make a little extra money (since doing side work would be wrong) I can go to my bosses two million dollar mansion and clean his pool, wax his wife's new BMW, and if I'm really lucky maybe he'll let me cut his grass!

I do not do side work because I enjoy spending all of my free time working, I do it to make money so I can provide a better quality of life for me and my family. How dare anyone criticize me for that! I have a Masters Lic., liability ins., pull permits, and pay taxes. I have just as much a right to that work as anyone else does.


This is an issue that will never be resolved! We can go round about forever.


If contractors paid their guys enough to live, maybe they would not have to do side work. On the other hand if contractors didn't have to compete with guys doing side work, they might be able to charge more and therefore pay their guys more. TOP pay for guys in my area (central MA) is low 30s, which is about enough to get by. I do not like living paycheck to paycheck and am not satisfied to just " get by". There is no right answer!

The only answer I have is that I will continue to do side work when it comes my way. If I am so naive about business and the "real" contractors are such smart business men then I am sure they are not concerned about me because I am no competition, I'm just a stupid "trunk slammer"!
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i agree brother
 
EBFD6 said:
Soooooo....... I spent 4 years working as an apprentice and 300 hours of classroom time not to mention thousands of dollars to get my license for what?


My boss is the only one allowed to make money?
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Your boss is not the only one allowed to make money...the bigger question is:

Why isn't it YOU with the 2 million dollar mansion, BMW and trophy wife by the pool?
 
EBFD6 said:
If contractors paid their guys enough to live, maybe they would not have to do side work. On the other hand if contractors didn't have to compete with guys doing side work, they might be able to charge more and therefore pay their guys more.
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Do you realize that you just condemned yourself with your own words? That's exactly the point - if sideworkers (as you've admitted that you are one yourself) didn't drive down the market value of electrical work, EC's could charge more and pay their employees more.
 
satcom said:
Is there something that will not allow you to get your contractors lic. ?


Or are you expecting some special treatment?
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There is no such thing as a contractors lic. in MA.

Journeyman can pull permits and have one apprentice, Masters can hire journeyman and one apprentice per journeyman.

My having a Master lic. is actually not required because I work alone or sometimes with one helper, which would be allowed in MA with only a journeyman lic.

So to answer your question I am not looking for special treatment, just a reasonable income, and the right to practice the craft for which I am fully qualified and legally allowed to do.


The fact that I choose to work for a company has more to do with the fact that I enjoy doing commercial and industrial service work, which I feel would not be a possibility if I worked for myself full time. I do residential side work and do not particularly enjoy crawling around other peoples attics, rolling around in blown-in insulation, but I need the money!

It is what it is!
 
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