Sidework

[mdshunk]

But when the slow times come, I'm going to be equipped with my handy sidejob flat-rate book, that way I'm not just GIVING AWAY my work for cheap.

I know more than one guy that does side work at higher rates than you could hire a full-time contractor for. People hiring a guy "on the side" have the perception that they're getting a cheap price, even if they are not in reality. Something to think about.

 

[stevenj76]

sidejob flat-rate books.

sidejob flat-rate books.

Also, with my flat-rate books, I planned on becoming a middle-man for my underemployed brothers. I can pay them well with the fat-hog I cut using my new sidejob flatrate manual.

 

[peter d]

Also, with my flat-rate books, I planned on becoming a middle-man for my underemployed brothers. I can pay them well with the fat-hog I cut using my new sidejob flatrate manual.

Now I know for sure you're just pulling our legs.

 

[celtic]

I

The last company I worked for, when I started he charged $35/hr and paid his top guys $29/hr. Eight years later when I left he charged $65/hr and paid his top guys $31/hr. Something doesn't sound right!

Oh well, I guess he had to pay for his Patriots luxury box season tickets, and his time share in Aruba somehow!

He was charging $35/hr, and the $29 was the top guys. There were alot of guys making much less and if you average the top guys with the first year helpers @ $9/hr how is that so hard to believe.


My point was in eight years he almost doubled his charge out rate, meanwhile his top guys saw a mere $2/hr raise. So the more he charges the more he makes, and his employees.......... not so much.

...and what happened to the $9/hr guys eight years later?
Surely they weren't still making $9/hr

His cost went up, therefore he had to raise his rates.

 

[electricmanscott]

If you read my post you would see that is my point, It's a catch 22. There is no right answer!

I also am pretty sceptical, however, that contractors ability to charge more would have much impact on employees wages. I find it more likely that the contractors would charge more, therefore make more and that's about as far as it would go.

The last company I worked for, when I started he charged $35/hr and paid his top guys $29/hr. Eight years later when I left he charged $65/hr and paid his top guys $31/hr. Something doesn't sound right!

Oh well, I guess he had to pay for his Patriots luxury box season tickets, and his time share in Aruba somehow!

It's alright for the contractors to make more, but not the working man. That's my point. Like someone has already said, it's all a matter of perspective.

Employers think their employees are greedy and unappreciative of everything they do for them, and employees think their employer is greedy and unappreciative of what they do.There is no way to win!

There most certainly is. Start your own company and do it your way.

Maybe it's just easier to complain about being beaten down by the man. Boy do some of you have deep anger towards your bosses. Maybe better called jealousy?? It's easier to go through life with an entitlement mentality expecting it to be handed to you rather than going out and making it happen for yourself.

Just to add I have no problem with the side work guys as I have said. I only ask that you charge a fair rate. And by that I mean fair to the trade. Especially since you are competing with me in this case. :wink:

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Do you realize that you just condemned yourself with your own words? That's exactly the point - if sideworkers (as you've admitted that you are one yourself) didn't drive down the market value of electrical work, EC's could charge more and pay their employees more.

Yes, and if "enter candidate's name here" is elected, your taxes could go down...

IF labor rates are market driven, then every trunkslammer and sidejobber would have to work through a contractor. After said contrtactor tacks on the overhead and the expenses, the net result is instaed of making $150.00 to hang a fan, the employee still only makes the hourly rate for the same work.

Have you considered that if 1/2 the EC's gave up the trade it would result in the remaining half doing much better? Why don't YOU make the sacrafice?

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

If you read my post you would see that is my point, It's a catch 22. There is no right answer!

I also am pretty sceptical, however, that contractors ability to charge more would have much impact on employees wages. I find it more likely that the contractors would charge more, therefore make more and that's about as far as it would go.

BINGO!

The last company I worked for, when I started he charged $35/hr and paid his top guys $29/hr. Eight years later when I left he charged $65/hr and paid his top guys $31/hr. Something doesn't sound right!

Oh well, I guess he had to pay for his Patriots luxury box season tickets, and his time share in Aruba somehow!

It's alright for the contractors to make more, but not the working man. That's my point. Like someone has already said, it's all a matter of perspective.

Employers think their employees are greedy and unappreciative of everything they do for them, and employees think their employer is greedy and unappreciative of what they do. There is no way to win!

But there is a way to agree to disagree.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Did you consider the fact that his rates may have been way too low to survive before, and he got them more in line so those guys could remain employed and get a 2 dollar raise to boot?

It's more likely he raised his rates so that HE could survive. He didn't go into business, or decide to remain in business for the purpose of providing employment to electricians.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I know more than one guy that does side work at higher rates than you could hire a full-time contractor for. People hiring a guy "on the side" have the perception that they're getting a cheap price, even if they are not in reality. Something to think about.

I can vouch for this.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Soooooo....... I spent 4 years working as an apprentice and 300 hours of classroom time not to mention thousands of dollars to get my license for what?

My boss is the only one allowed to make money?

Of course you're allowed. They just don't like it. They're so used to earning their living by brokering your time and skills, they cannot fathom you cutting them out of that sweet deal. Just bear in mind you shouldn't steal the boss's customers, or material.

...

This is an issue that will never be resolved! We can go round about forever.

Capital and labor have nothing in common.

If contractors paid their guys enough to live, maybe they would not have to do side work. On the other hand if contractors didn't have to compete with guys doing side work, they might be able to charge more and therefore pay their guys more. TOP pay for guys in my area (central MA) is low 30s, which is about enough to get by. I do not like living paycheck to paycheck and am not satisfied to just " get by". There is no right answer!

No, there is a right answer. You're paid for 35-40 hours a week. After that, you are NOT under anyone's employ and do not have to listen to their opinions, nor follow thier "rules."

As for your dream senerio - that if guys didn't do side work, the boss could charge more and then pay more... do you really think that contractors would be falling over themselves to raise your pay if that situation came to pass?

The only answer I have is that I will continue to do side work when it comes my way. If I am so naive about business and the "real" contractors are such smart business men then I am sure they are not concerned about me because I am no competition, I'm just a stupid "trunk slammer"!

 

[john_axelson]

It's more likely he raised his rates so that HE could survive. He didn't go into business, or decide to remain in business for the purpose of providing employment to electricians.

He may not have gone into business to provide employment for electricians, but most "good" employers do feel a loyalty to their employees and therefore, will make sacrifices to keep them well compensated and employed. I know far too many contractors that will bid projects at or below their estimated costs "Just to keep the Guys working" when times are slow, like now (here anyway). You get to know the the employee and their families and it is human nature to try to protect them.

 

[aline]

Remember the old saying "You should walk a mile in a man's shoes before you criticize him."

How many contractor's used to be employees?
How many employees used to be contractors?

Maybe you should try becoming a contractor before you criticize one.

http://www.nlpls.com/articles/perceptualPositions.php

 

[aline]

Of course you're allowed. They just don't like it. They're so used to earning their living by brokering your time and skills, they cannot fathom you cutting them out of that sweet deal. Just bear in mind you shouldn't steal the boss's customers, or material.

If it's such a sweet deal why aren't you doing it?

Why would anyone do side work when they can just earn a living by brokering someone elses time and skills?

Anyone can go into business for themselves. If you're not qaulified to become an electrical contractor there are plenty of other businesses you could go into and have this sweet deal of earning a living by brokering the time and skills of others. I think you should go for it. You'll never make any real money working for someone else. You'll just die a bitter old man knowing that someone got rich off of you.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

He may not have gone into business to provide employment for electricians, but most "good" employers do feel a loyalty to their employees and therefore, will make sacrifices to keep them well compensated and employed. I know far too many contractors that will bid projects at or below their estimated costs "Just to keep the Guys working" when times are slow, like now (here anyway). You get to know the the employee and their families and it is human nature to try to protect them.

Maybe things are very different by you... no employer here "gets to know my family." When contractors bid at cost to keep their guys working, it's to keep from losing his guys, and getting his unemployment insurance rates jacked up. And so when times get better, he doesn't have to start from scratch with an entirely new labor pool. Of course, translated for the employee it's turned into an "employer sacrafice... I'm doing this all for you..."

 

[aline]

Of course you're allowed. They just don't like it. They're so used to earning their living by brokering your time and skills, they cannot fathom you cutting them out of that sweet deal.

It sounds more like to me that you're earning a living by relying on your employers time and skill to aquire work, so that he can keep you employed, so that you will have a steady income and benefits, so that he can support your side jobs.

If it wasn't for your employer keeping you employed you wouldn't be able to do any side jobs.

If he's not paying you enough, go into some type of business for yourself and get your share of that sweet deal.

 

[john_axelson]

Maybe things are very different by you... no employer here "gets to know my family." When contractors bid at cost to keep their guys working, it's to keep from losing his guys, and getting his unemployment insurance rates jacked up. And so when times get better, he doesn't have to start from scratch with an entirely new labor pool. Of course, translated for the employee it's turned into an "employer sacrafice... I'm doing this all for you..."

That is a sad story. The best employers I have worked for have taken the time to get to know me and my family. I am using that as one of my guidelines now that I am out on my own. You may think I am being naive, but I do care about the guys that have chosen to work for me and I want to see them be successful and enjoy as much of their job as they can.

I do know that one does some side work. I have just told him, that the material that I purchase for the jobs and the tools that I own, stay on the job site. If I find out otherwise, then I will feel taken advantage of. I have informed him of the laws of the State of Minnesota and if he gets caught it is his livlihood that will suffer. Minnesota requires that a permit be pulled by a licensed contractor. In order to be licensed you need (changes this year from $5000 to $25,000) a $25,000 bond and proof of insurance, along with a masters license. A homeowner can pull the permit, but must "do" the work themselves then.

Actually worked at shop where the owner of the shop pulled permits for his guys to do "sidework" on. The State found out, because one of the guys took advantage of a homeowner and took full payment without completing the job. The State put that employer on probation for 4 years. If they are caught pulling a permit for work they don't perform and BILL for, their Contractor's License will be revoked.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

It sounds more like to me that you're earning a living by relying on your employers time and skill to aquire work, so that he can keep you employed, so that you will have a steady income and benefits, so that he can support your side jobs.

If it wasn't for your employer keeping you employed you wouldn't be able to do any side jobs.

If he's not paying you enough, go into some type of business for yourself and get your share of that sweet deal.

-The work I do for my employer does not generate sidework.
-My employment jurisdiction is not my home jurisdiction.
-My employer doesn't keep me employed, I keep me employed. My employer could vanish off the face of the earth tomorrow, and I'll still have a job as will everyone else.
-My benifits are paid by me - through the profit made by selling my work. Unlike some contractors who "take a risk" of going on their own but depending on their wife's employment for their benefits coverage.

That is a sad story. The best employers I have worked for have taken the time to get to know me and my family. I am using that as one of my guidelines now that I am out on my own. You may think I am being naive, but I do care about the guys that have chosen to work for me and I want to see them be successful and enjoy as much of their job as they can.

This has nothing to do with caring about people or not caring about your employees, employers, etc. This is strictly business. The closest thing to my "employer" lives 1/2 the year on a Yacht between Bermuda and Florida. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but in my division alone he's got 433 employees. My local has 14,000. This is not Mayberry.

I do know that one does some side work. I have just told him, that the material that I purchase for the jobs and the tools that I own, stay on the job site. If I find out otherwise, then I will feel taken advantage of. I have informed him of the laws of the State of Minnesota and if he gets caught it is his livlihood that will suffer. Minnesota requires that a permit be pulled by a licensed contractor. In order to be licensed you need (changes this year from $5000 to $25,000) a $25,000 bond and proof of insurance, along with a masters license. A homeowner can pull the permit, but must "do" the work themselves then.

Then in principle you agree with me. You didn't fire the guy. Quite frankly, I find that the guys who do sidework are generally the ones you'd rather keep anyway. There are a lot of people doing electrical work who genuinely do not enjoy it. The side jobbers aren't amongst them. I'm 50% owner of a delicatessan too. One of the employees does catering on the side. I don't have an issue with it.




I do know that one does some side work. I have just told him, that the material that I purchase for the jobs and the tools that I own, stay on the job site. If I find out otherwise, then I will feel taken advantage of. I have informed him of the laws of the State of Minnesota and if he gets caught it is his livlihood that will suffer. Minnesota requires that a permit be pulled by a licensed contractor. In order to be licensed you need (changes this year from $5000 to $25,000) a $25,000 bond and proof of insurance, along with a masters license. A homeowner can pull the permit, but must "do" the work themselves then.

Actually worked at shop where the owner of the shop pulled permits for his guys to do "sidework" on. The State found out, because one of the guys took advantage of a homeowner and took full payment without completing the job. The State put that employer on probation for 4 years. If they are caught pulling a permit for work they don't perform and BILL for, their Contractor's License will be revoked.
Today 09:44 AM

 

[jshaw]

This is a long and involved thread. Stickboy posted something that everyone has refused to consider. How many of you remember when the only place you could buy materials to do electrical work was at a supply house? If you weren't a contractor you couldn't buy materials? Part of the problem with the influx of side jobbers and low ballers is the availability of materials and supplies at a cheap price to anyone who thinks they know about electrical work.

I can't count the number of times I was told by a prospective customer, "why are you charging so much. I saw that part at ......... for $20.00."

In this forum we often talk about the 20% or whatever markup on materials, but sometimes on the small side jobs people have often self-priced the materials and they complain about your markup. They have no consideration for your overhead or other expenses. They don't care that you have to pay for insurance or workman's comp because they went to ......... and priced the materials and they think they know how much you should be charging.

As we are beating the crap out of each other here, let's take a look at the changing market and give some credit where it is due to the home improvement stores that tell people "you don't need to hire a licensed person because you can do it and we can help. Or your next door neighbor who installed his car stereo last week can do it, and we can help. Or, some guy who owns a drill driver and a pair of wire strippers and calls himself an electrician can do it, and we can help."

 

[aline]

-The work I do for my employer does not generate sidework.

True. It does not generate sidework and I never said it did. However it does allow you to do sidework. Without it you could not afford to do side work. I still don't understand why you're not getting in on the sweet deal of becoming a contractor or opening up some other type of business and earning your living of the time and skills of others.

-My employer doesn't keep me employed, I keep me employed. My employer could vanish off the face of the earth tomorrow, and I'll still have a job as will everyone else.

Only if your next employer has enough jobs or work to keep you employed.

Do you get the jobs or work that keeps you employed or does your employer do it?
Unless you're providing the jobs or work your employer is keeping you employed not you. Just because you switch to a different employer doesn't change this.

You're only employed because your employer put in the time and has the skills to find enough work to keep you employed. Sure you can find another employer to work for but It's still the same situation with him. He's keeping you employed by providing you with work. You're not keeping him in business by providing him with work. You're providing the labor to complete the work.

 

[aline]

I guess in the overall sceme of things we all keep ourselves employed by buying things.

If no one ever bought anything none of us would be employed.