Sidework

[480sparky]

I guess in the overall sceme of things we all keep ourselves employed by buying things.

If no one ever bought anything none of us would be employed.

But, if you never bought anything, why would you need a job?

 

[BryanMD]

Have you considered that if 1/2 the EC's gave up the trade it would result in the remaining half doing much better?

I think this suggestion really gets down to the bottom of the issue.

The DIY's will (and should be able to) continue to do for themselves.
Some better than others. And some % of HO's and cheap landlords, etc will always look for a way to save a penny on a repair. Guys who will serve them will always be available.

The DIYer and small repair guy is NOT the threat to the established EC that the smalltime upstart EC is.

 

[growler]

There are a lot of people doing electrical work who genuinely do not enjoy it. The side jobbers aren't amongst them. I'm 50% owner of a delicatessan too. One of the employees does catering on the side. I don't have an issue with it.

This deli that you are part owner of, is it a legal business or run out of a basement ( I'm pretty sure legal )?

If you feel OK about running an illegal contracting business ( the real name for side work ) why shouldn't everyone open a deli in their basement. I'm sure that they could cut prices.

The only reason that you like doing electrical work is because you like the profits from running an illegal business enterprise , if you didn't then you would be a contractor.

I don't know how many people think about this but if there were no legal contractors with high overhead there really wouldn't be any real money to be made doing side work or running an illegal business.

We all know the advantages of doing side work. No records, no receipts, no warranty, no taxes. If you ever admit that you are running a business then you are in trouble because the business is illegal.

I have no idea why people think that the trades should be exempt from the same laws that govern every other business in the country. Even a hot dog vendor needs a business license. It would probably be a better money maker if he didn't.

 

[celtic]

I'm 50% owner of a delicatessan too. One of the employees does catering on the side. I don't have an issue with it.

I'm sure you would be very upset if I ploppped an illegal dirty water dog cart outside your deli's front door....you'd probably never sell another soda again.

 

[crossman]

We can look at this from a philosophical perspective, but reality is what pays the bills. Sure, everyone should follow the law. However, when there is very little enforcement of the laws, the benefits of doing side work illegally outweigh the risks.

This is true of anything involving the law. There are some ultra-rich drug dealers out there. Why? Because we don't have enough enforcement or the resolve to make the risks of selling drugs outweigh the benefits.

Sure, there are laws which hot dog vendors have to comply with. But I can guarantee you there are hundreds of illegal taco stands down here in the south.

Anytime you have a niche where money can be made, where the rewards are greater than the risks, you can guarantee that someone will attempt to take advantage of it. It is like Darwin's survival of the fittest. Every viable economic niche will be filled.

So, philosophically, yep, no one should do illegal work. But realistically, every small EC who is competing with that side work better understand that it ain't going away and should develop a plan to adjust to it.

So, is it right? No. Is it reality? Yes. Deal with it accordingly.

 

[john_axelson]

-Then in principle you agree with me. You didn't fire the guy. Today 09:44 AM

No, I don't agree with you. I can NOT dictate to an employee what he does after hours - therefore, I can't fire him for that reason alone. If he does engage in illegal activity, I will deal swiftly with that employee.

Now that I know you are "Part of a Local". I think you may want to read the international agreement that you hold so near and dear to your heart. I am quite confident that it is VERY clear on MOONLIGHTING, aka, side jobs. Your Local and its governing body the International frowns on the side jobs, so why do you continue to do it?

I think you would have a hard time explaining yourself to them if you were turned in.

 

[emahler]

there is no argument...

you can either have the gumption and guts to go out on your own and make the big bucks by brokering your employees labor...

or you can be scared to take a risk, let some one else sell your time for a profit, complain that you can't live on what they are paying you, then do illegal side work because you "have to put food on the table"

you will now get a bunch of excuses as to why a guy can't just go out and do it legally on his own...they are all hogwash...there is nothing in this country stopping a man from bettering himself, except that mans laziness and ineptitude...

 

[electricmanscott]

there is no argument...

you can either have the gumption and guts to go out on your own and make the big bucks by brokering your employees labor...

or you can be scared to take a risk, let some one else sell your time for a profit, complain that you can't live on what they are paying you, then do illegal side work because you "have to put food on the table"

you will now get a bunch of excuses as to why a guy can't just go out and do it legally on his own...they are all hogwash...there is nothing in this country stopping a man from bettering himself, except that mans laziness and ineptitude...

All said with America the Beautiful playing in the background!!

Well put and very accurate.

 

[john_axelson]

-Not that there's anything wrong with that, but in my division alone he's got 433 employees. My local has 14,000. This is not Mayberry.
Today 09:44 AM

Just so you know, Mayberry wouldn't be so bad. I happen to work in the largest Metropolitian Area in the State of Minnesota. Not really Mayberry here either, sometimes I wish it was.

 

[celtic]

It really warms my cockles when they bust some dude for being a "doctor" and doing all sorts of insane things to people.

 

[peter d]

Why don't YOU make the sacrafice?

Because I'm happy to be an employee right now. My boss is one van EC who has worked very hard to get where he is today. He's taking the risk, he's paying out a lot of money every month to every single agency and person who regulates business. I don't care that he profits from my work, because I understand what he has to do to survive. It's no cakewalk.

I don't need to do sidework. If I need the extra money I can work o/t.

 

[emahler]

It really warms my cockles when they bust some dude for being a "doctor" and doing all sorts of insane things to people.

hey, i wasn't taking customers or material for my boss...won't you ever let me live that down..

 

[keesha]

........Check out the fuel costs for the service vehicles ,ins.,maint. for said vehicles, liability insurance increases? the small business tax increase,the Federal tax increase,workers comp etc..
These are just the Government increases.
Now the heat for the building,property taxes,his own building maintanance,Phone service,upgrades to communication with the employees' (cell,page,etc.)
A penny here and there can add up "WICKED"(Bostonian)fast.

I doubt that the "huge" labor rate increase went in the employers pocket.

A percentage? Yes. The whole thing? No way.

BTW, I am also a "trunk slammer". I am licensed,insured and work alone.
I am familiar with the going rates and mark ups of similar contractors doing similar work.I charge accordingly(same) and do not hesitate to turn over leads for jobs beyond my scope.
My only advantage, no premium for nights and weekends.

All other charges are comparable.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

True. It does not generate sidework and I never said it did. However it does allow you to do sidework. Without it you could not afford to do side work. I still don't understand why you're not getting in on the sweet deal of becoming a contractor or opening up some other type of business and earning your living of the time and skills of others.

Are you saying that w/o my full time job, I wouldn't be able to do sidework? That would be inaccurate.

Only if your next employer has enough jobs or work to keep you employed.

Do you get the jobs or work that keeps you employed or does your employer do it?
Unless you're providing the jobs or work your employer is keeping you employed not you. Just because you switch to a different employer doesn't change this.

You're only employed because your employer put in the time and has the skills to find enough work to keep you employed.

No, I'm only employed because I have what a contractor needs and cannot exist or survive without.

Sure you can find another employer to work for but It's still the same situation with him. He's keeping you employed by providing you with work. You're not keeping him in business by providing him with work. You're providing the labor to complete the work.

There is X amount of work. There are Y number of contractors. If the number of contractors is reduced because one quit the business, Y -1, there are still X number of work. Employers find their share of the work, they don't discover or invent it or create it.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

This deli that you are part owner of, is it a legal business or run out of a basement ( I'm pretty sure legal )?

It's a legal storefront business. And many ( I would say 99%) of delis do catering. Not large scale like weddings, but small scale like dinner parties, political events, Superbowl parties, bars, corporate meetings, etc.

If you feel OK about running an illegal contracting business ( the real name for side work ) why shouldn't everyone open a deli in their basement. I'm sure that they could cut prices.

Because people don't want to cook, it's not worth their time. If more people did, and catering or deli work were to become less profitable, I would leave the deli business.

The only reason that you like doing electrical work is because you like the profits from running an illegal business enterprise , if you didn't then you would be a contractor.

No, I like doing what I do because I enjoy it. I also enjoy getting on a new a unique gig every few years, because after working in a particular aspect of the industry for a few years, I'm bored and ready to shoot my brains out. (Splicing fiber almost drove me insane. I lasted a week punching down Cat5's before I begged for my money.) I do side work because it's lucrative and I enjoy it. I don't engage in it full time because it's not stable enough. There's something to be said for diversity and NOT putting all of one's eggs in one basket. I do not have to choose to either "risk everything and go it alone" or not. I can have the best of both worlds.

I don't know how many people think about this but if there were no legal contractors with high overhead there really wouldn't be any real money to be made doing side work or running an illegal business.

I don't understand your rationale behind this at all. If there were no "real" legal contractors, there would probably be more "electrical construction management services" and "tool and material provisions" services and "skilled construction labor employment services" to coordinate the hiring of large quantities of skilled electricians to man jobs.

We all know the advantages of doing side work. No records, no receipts, no warranty, no taxes. If you ever admit that you are running a business then you are in trouble because the business is illegal.

I have no idea why people think that the trades should be exempt from the same laws that govern every other business in the country. Even a hot dog vendor needs a business license. It would probably be a better money maker if he didn't.

I don't get too hung up on the legality issues. I doubt anybody goes through a typical day without violating some law or statute. There are over 20 million illegals in this country. The speed limit is 55 and 75 is the normal speed of traffic. The law requires contractors may employ unlicensed, untested people, call them "electricians" regardless of their skill level, as long as their working under the license holders "direct supervision." Do you think this is actually happening? I know it is not.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

No, I don't agree with you. I can NOT dictate to an employee what he does after hours - therefore, I can't fire him for that reason alone. If he does engage in illegal activity, I will deal swiftly with that employee.

I don't know your employment laws, but "at will" employment means you can fire any employee for any reason or no reason whatsoever. You do not need a reason to let anyone go. Though you cannot discriminate against a protected class, like the elderly or a particular religious persuasion, "sidejobbers" are not a protected class.

Now that I know you are "Part of a Local". I think you may want to read the international agreement that you hold so near and dear to your heart. I am quite confident that it is VERY clear on MOONLIGHTING, aka, side jobs. Your Local and its governing body the International frowns on the side jobs, so why do you continue to do it?

Philosophically, the rule is there to placate the participating contractors. And in reality - I know too much, which contractors are themselves breaking the rules, which contractors are partners in competing nonunion shops, and legally - I do not do sidework in the jurisdiction in which I'm employed.

I think you would have a hard time explaining yourself to them if you were turned in.

My local agreement does not extend beyond it's jurisdiction.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

there is no argument...

you can either have the gumption and guts to go out on your own and make the big bucks by brokering your employees labor...

or you can be scared to take a risk, let some one else sell your time for a profit, complain that you can't live on what they are paying you, then do illegal side work because you "have to put food on the table"

you will now get a bunch of excuses as to why a guy can't just go out and do it legally on his own...they are all hogwash...there is nothing in this country stopping a man from bettering himself,[/b] except that mans laziness and ineptitude...[/b]

Theres plenty of argument. I'm living proof your entire statement is a load of malarky.

According to you, if you have gumption and guts you go it alone, and you're bettering yourself, if not, you're a fraidy-cat and lazy and inept.

Sounds a lot like another bogus argument I'm sure you're familiar with.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Just so you know, Mayberry wouldn't be so bad. I happen to work in the largest Metropolitian Area in the State of Minnesota. Not really Mayberry here either, sometimes I wish it was.

I agree, I intend to retire there. My point was, the social relationships you forge with your employees isn't possible on a grand scale.

The U.S. Census Bureau defines the Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington Metropolitan Statistical Area as a region of eleven counties in Minnesota and two in neighboring Wisconsin, an area which had a population of nearly three million people (2,968,805) in 2000.

New York City comprises five boroughs, each of which is coterminous with a county: The Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens and Staten Island. With over 8.2 million residents within an area of 322 square miles (830 km?), New York City is the most densely populated major city in the United States.[3][4][5]

One of the boroughs, Brooklyn, is almost larger than both of your Twin Cities.

Brooklyn (named after the Dutch town Breukelen) is one of the five boroughs of New York City. Bigger than Los Angeles. An independent city until its consolidation into New York in 1898, Brooklyn is New York City's most populous borough, with nearly 2.5 million residents.[1] Brooklyn is coterminous with Kings County, which is the most populous county in New York State, and the second most densely populated county in the United States (after New York County, which is the borough of Manhattan).[2]

 

[emahler]

Theres plenty of argument. I'm living proof your entire statement is a load of malarky.

According to you, if you have gumption and guts you go it alone, and you're bettering yourself, if not, you're a fraidy-cat and lazy and inept.

Sounds a lot like another bogus argument I'm sure you're familiar with.

how have you survived this long on this planet?

the bogus argument that a guy is doing side work to better himself or put food on his table is the malarky..

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

........Check out the fuel costs for the service vehicles ,ins.,maint. for said vehicles, liability insurance increases? the small business tax increase,the Federal tax increase,workers comp etc..
These are just the Government increases.
Now the heat for the building,property taxes,his own building maintanance,Phone service,upgrades to communication with the employees' (cell,page,etc.)
A penny here and there can add up "WICKED"(Bostonian)fast.

I doubt that the "huge" labor rate increase went in the employers pocket.

A percentage? Yes. The whole thing? No way.

BTW, I am also a "trunk slammer". I am licensed,insured and work alone.
I am familiar with the going rates and mark ups of similar contractors doing similar work.I charge accordingly(same) and do not hesitate to turn over leads for jobs beyond my scope.
My only advantage, no premium for nights and weekends.

All other charges are comparable.

Why not? You charge the same rate for night or weekend work?