Sidework

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I have a question for the guys from MA. I understand that as a journeyman you can legally do electrical work but are there no other requirements to do work in the state. Any local requirements?

The reason I ask is this, in this state you can hold a master's license and still need a business license to get a permit or to do work legally. I know that it's just an additional local tax but without such records how do they manage to tax local small business operations. Of course this is just the start, once you have a business license then certain areas require bonding and then they charge an advalorem tax on equipment and inventory ( anything used to conduct business from computers to ladders ).

It's just hard for me to believe that there is an un-taxed profession at the local level. :grin:
 
There is no such thing as "Untaxed" anything. :rolleyes:

The only difference between a master and journeyman besides what is required to get the license,is the fact of who you can employ. As a jman you can operate a business with one apprentice. A master can employ other licensed people. Thats the basics of it,

All other rules, insurance, taxes, etc still apply.
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
Are you saying that w/o my full time job, I wouldn't be able to do sidework? That would be inaccurate.
If you didn't have a full time job it wouldn't be sidework anymore it would be your full time job. So yes I'm saying you can't do sidework without a full time job.



LawnGuyLandSparky said:
No, I'm only employed because I have what a contractor needs and cannot exist or survive without.
Is this what you tell your boss when you want a raise?
Is this what you say when interviewing for a job?

I'm a contractor without any employees and I exist and survive.
Not only do I not need you to exist and survive I wouldn't want to hire you with your attitude.
I do know how to do electrical work you know and can survive just fine without you.


Edited to add:
I'm sure your current employer would go out of business if you quit showing up for work.
You can be a contractor without employees. You cannot be an employee without an employer. An employee cannot exist or survive without an employer. Someone who is willing to take a risk and hire them.
 
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iwire said:
I assume many states allow people to have second means of income.

What do you see as the 'illegal' part of side work?

bob..you're smarter than this.....

licensing, insurance, etc....
 
The woman’s hands shook as she looked at the estimate and bill. The estimate was for $2,000 – that’s what it would take to fix her air conditioning system. The bill was for $200, which is what the AC/Heating service charged to come out and look at the system that day.

Four days later, her system was fixed - for $300 and a few glasses of lemonade. The woman was very happy. So was the neighbor who did the job. He wasn’t from the AC/Heating Company that did the estimate, but he’s worked for similar companies in the past. He currently works for a plumbing contractor during the week; and on weekends, does AC, heating and plumbing “on the side”. Such is one example of the growth of “side work.”

Even more;

Magruder acknowledges there is a gray area with side jobs, something the company has taken some heat for on online forums. It seems many companies do not want their people doing side work. And Magruder knows why: “The fact is, these companies make a lot of money. Having their own technicians doing the same work on weekends shrinks the customer base, and, ultimately, their profits. But how can you limit someone doing work for a friend in their free time? The fact is, you can’t.”

That said, Magruder doesn’t condone a company employee pricing a job for the company, and then doing the same job themselves “on the side” – that’s clearly crossing a line: “We do not encourage workers to use company time to scout jobs. Period. But on the other side of that coin, if a friend or neighbor needs you, and you have the skill, hey, go make a few bucks on a Saturday afternoon.”

The lemonade is waiting.

Amigos, we are doomed.
 
It seems in order to rationalize sidework, a private issue between 2 parties having no relationship to the naysayers, as being hands-down wrong, a litany of excuses and senerios (which are all either incorrect or inapplicable) have been presented.


Rewire said:
The main difference is the other conthat tractor is not on my payrole, I don't pay other contractors when they don't have work of their own.

I'm paid by my employer to work. After work I am not paid by my employer and therefore, what I do (sidework, hunt, fish, rake leaves, etc) is none of his business or concern.

Any allegience to my employer, real or imagined, ENDS the moment I'm not on the clock.

Why don't you tell the other contractor you're competing with that he is not to do contracting work because that negatively affects your business? Because he'd tell you to pound sand. Do you think a different contractor could tell me what to do and what not to do even though I'v never been in his employ??? Heck no.

So while I'm off the clock, the two of you are in the same boat. Neither of you is my employer when neither of you are paying me. The fact that earlier in the day one of you did pay me is irrelevant - our implied contract (I work for you for these hours and you pay me X amount) is suspended. Nowhere in our contract, printed or implied, does it say what I can and cannot do outside of the paid hours. If it did, I wouldn't work for you.

You trade on the good name of your employer people ask you to do side jobs because they know you work for an electrical contractor and they know you will be cheaper because you are not burdened with the cost of operatining a business and making a weekly payrole for a guy who is competing for the very work you do.

I explained in an earlier post that this is not the case. I trade on my own good name and my sidework comes from customers referring my name. The type of work I'm employed to do is not the kind one does on the side. Anyone calling me already knows what the deal is. I have no business cards or advertizing. And I'm sure as heck not going to name drop my employer as a reference.

As for being on your own time and what you do on it is not an employers concern well if it affects my business then yes it is my concern and low balling work that I do and by the way pays your weekly check is my concern.

Were it the case that I was doing the same work on the side that I did in my employ, your statement still proves false. Just because an issue affects your business negatively does not automatically give you the right to get involved in that issue, or control it, and it certianly doesn't empower you to do something about it. When gas prices rise you don't fire the employee for filling up. Nor the gas station clerk.

What pays my weekly check is my labor and talent sold for a price greater than it's worth, enough to support a company's overhead and profits. In short, no matter how you slice it, I am the only one who pays me. Follow the money. When a customer contracts for work to be done, they're not interested in the costs of warehousing, transportation, advertizing, overhead, telephones etc. They're paying for the electrical work. So any money that comes out of a company's pocket for payroll, only got into that pocket in the first place by trading MY labor for it.

Just because you were intimately involved in brokering the entire transaction doesn't mean that you (or your overhead) is really a necessary component to get from needing electrical work to making electrical work happen.
 
emahler said:
There is hypocrisy is running rampant in this thread...certain individuals will picket job sites that are being run by legal, legitimate companies that don't belong to a certain club...then they will say that an employee has the right to do illegal side work....

what gives?

Picketing and protesting is a constitutional right. I am not telling you you're not free to vocalize your opinions on employees doing sidework. Have at it.
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
Picketing and protesting is a constitutional right. I am not telling you you're not free to vocalize your opinions on employees doing sidework. Have at it.

He did not say that you could not, or do not have the right to picket and protest.

He did point out some hypocrisy I see as well, but we now we are getting way off topic and I will end up censored. :grin:
 
This thing has been beaten into the ground, but here's my hapenny:

- just cause its side work doesn't mean the guy doing it didn't have the gumption to get licensed and insured, although I'm sure this is probably a good bet.

- imho anyone who is competing with guys doing side work needs to seriously reconsider their business plan. As others have said, being an EC isn't just being a qualified electrician, its selling the benefits to your customer. For Example, if a customer says to me they are just calling to shop the price, the first thing I tell them is that we aren't the cheapest - we provide quality, service, and stand behind our work. "But I can get it done for 1/2 the price" - ans: will they be there in a year to come back and fix it if something is wrong ? will their insurance pay if God forbid your house burns down because of a defective device? You don't have to cross the line between selling the benefits of hiring you versus fear tactics (its a fine line), but its a sell either way. (In my short life the clients that I wanted were the ones who were willing to pay anyway). Dealing with GC's can be a little more difficult, but if you show up when you say you will, and are reasonable when it comes to extras (and aren't dealing with an unreasonable GC), then you can use that as a selling point when they want you to come down on your price (because some other guy gave a lower bid). It always helps to remind them of that job that you bailed them out on, etc.

If your customers are willing to pay, you can sell them on the comfort level, professionalism, and expertise that you have to offer (versus the hacks). If you can't sell them, then either you are not a good enough salesman or you don't want them for a customer anyway.

jmho
 
it keeps going and going and going............

if sideworkers (as you've admitted that you are one yourself) didn't drive down the market value of electrical work, EC's could charge more and pay their employees more.

I was one of those sideworkers that DIDN'T drive the market down. I always got top dollar. Maybe the customer assumed that I was cheaper. I remember once giving a 12K bid when the contractor already had one for 7K. He looked at me with distain and ran me off :)
 
brantmacga said:
Amigos, we are doomed.


Brant read their tips for consumers. First they tell people to find a side jober and then they tell them not to pay cash or write a check to an individual. Not to pay up front. Check references. Check for licenses and even how to file a complaint.
 
aline said:
If you didn't have a full time job it wouldn't be sidework anymore it would be your full time job. So yes I'm saying you can't do sidework without a full time job.

Well in that case, consider me fired at the end of my workday, and rehired at the begining of the next.

Is this what you tell your boss when you want a raise?
Is this what you say when interviewing for a job?

I don't say anything to my boss when I want a raise. I have people (professionals, lawyers, labor negotiators, and members) who sit down with the bosses and broker a deal that's fair to all parties involved. The bosses know where the workers stand, they can see that in the payroll.

How do you guys hash out a fair deal? Do you open YOUR books to your employees, so they can see what you're spending, charging, and making for profit?

As for interviews, I've had one in 17 years.

I'm a contractor without any employees and I exist and survive.
Not only do I not need you to exist and survive I wouldn't want to hire you with your attitude.
I do know how to do electrical work you know and can survive just fine without you.

I'm not negating that. What I am saying is, a contractor with 20, 50, or 500 employees can NOT engage in the type of business I'm employed to do without US.


Edited to add:
I'm sure your current employer would go out of business if you quit showing up for work.
You can be a contractor without employees. You cannot be an employee without an employer. An employee cannot exist or survive without an employer. Someone who is willing to take a risk and hire them.

Your willingness to take a risk entitles you to nothing, as it implies, with risks there is no gurantee. It does seem apparent that contractos who claim this is all about risk-taking seem to agree that part your responsibility, or implied god-given right to squashing those risks to make your lives more profitable.

Talk about hyprocricy.
 
aline said:
I'm a contractor without any employees and I exist and survive.
Not only do I not need you to exist and survive I wouldn't want to hire you with your attitude.
I do know how to do electrical work you know and can survive just fine without you.


Edited to add:
I'm sure your current employer would go out of business if you quit showing up for work.
You can be a contractor without employees. You cannot be an employee without an employer. An employee cannot exist or survive without an employer. Someone who is willing to take a risk and hire them.


This maybe true, I am an employee, and therefore need an employer. I do not, however, need my current employer. It blows my mind how employers think they are doing you some kind of favor by allowing you to go to work. It's a two way street.

My employer has 40 other licensed electricians who can do my job (some maybe not as well as I can, and some probably better than I can), so no he doesn't need me. On the other hand there are hundreds of other electrical contractors out there I can work for (and if you take into consideration my out of state licenses, there are thousands of contractors), so I don't need him either. I work where I do right now because I like my boss, he treats me well, and things are great right now, however when/if things change and I don't like the show anymore I will change the channel! I have done it before and will do it again. If you are a good electrician and have a good reputation in the field, word travels and you will not have trouble finding a new job.

As a former co-worker once said "I was looking for a job when I found this one , and I will be looking for a job when I find my next one". Different clowns, same circus. No one in this industry ( at least anyone with a license) is reliant on anyone else to earn a living. As someone has already said, we as licensed electricians are the product that is for sale, so no matter who we work for or where we work, we will always be needed!

Maybe you don't need me but someone does!
 
nakulak said:
This thing has been beaten into the ground, but here's my hapenny:

- just cause its side work doesn't mean the guy doing it didn't have the gumption to get licensed and insured, although I'm sure this is probably a good bet.

- imho anyone who is competing with guys doing side work needs to seriously reconsider their business plan.

I'd actually have to defend the small contractor's position on this point. As it happens, the small (no employee) contractor is pretty much the guy I'm competing with. Sure, he should know this going in.

As others have said, being an EC isn't just being a qualified electrician, its selling the benefits to your customer. For Example, if a customer says to me they are just calling to shop the price, the first thing I tell them is that we aren't the cheapest - we provide quality, service, and stand behind our work. "But I can get it done for 1/2 the price" - ans: will they be there in a year to come back and fix it if something is wrong ? will their insurance pay if God forbid your house burns down because of a defective device? You don't have to cross the line between selling the benefits of hiring you versus fear tactics (its a fine line), but its a sell either way. (In my short life the clients that I wanted were the ones who were willing to pay anyway).

Salesmanship comes into play in sidework as well. Just because I did something on the side doesn't mean I'm a fly by night and won't fix something that proves defective.

But let's be realistic - most defects in an electrical or data job turn out to be defective workmanship, and if 1 year later a house you wired burns down, YOU will probably never hear about it, and for sure it won't be YOUR insurance that covers the loss.

Dealing with GC's can be a little more difficult, but if you show up when you say you will, and are reasonable when it comes to extras (and aren't dealing with an unreasonable GC), then you can use that as a selling point when they want you to come down on your price (because some other guy gave a lower bid). It always helps to remind them of that job that you bailed them out on, etc.

If your customers are willing to pay, you can sell them on the comfort level, professionalism, and expertise that you have to offer (versus the hacks). If you can't sell them, then either you are not a good enough salesman or you don't want them for a customer anyway.

jmho
 
aline said:
How do you know this?

Know what?

That my friends working out of their garages with no office, no employees, no health insurance to cover have a lower overhead then emahler that runs a full time business with employees in business friendly NJ?

Just a wild guess. :grin:
 
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